Rick Butts Show: Unsubscribe From Whomever Emailed You Stompernet
Sharon Bray-McPherson
· 1 year ago
Great advice Rick. As a matter of fact, lately I've been doing exactly what you suggest and unsubscribing from newsletters (and I use that term lightly) that are "lite" on content. And on those occasions when I'm asked why I've unsubscribed I take great pleasure in telling them why.
He , I do agree with what you say.The ebook is real good and I am wading through it.Hope to finish it soon !
David - About Results Marketin
· 1 year ago
LOL, Rick, I was ready for the "anti-guru" message, that establishes you as "the real Guru", or the "Save Money get a Cheaper Product" pitch. Instead, I got an email with a really great point - something about building real relationships.
It's refreshing to have people step out of the hype of the carefully crafted salesletter and be real. Your point about relationships is great, and Michelle is another person who hasn't released a product before providing value to the SEO/SEM community.
Rick, I forgot to mention that I presented twice at an event in Seattle this past weekend and lots of folks in the audience approached me to say that they watched the videos and the content I delivered on stage and it knocked their socks off!
gordon m turner
· 1 year ago
Hi Rick
A great bit of advice, I get that much junk mail that I hardly have time to view the ones that count, system overload.
Keep up the good work
Gordon
Roger Auge
· 1 year ago
Thanks Rick,
You're right about Michelle and Scott. I've been following them lately and their info is really eye opening!
Sincerely,
Roger Auge Canada
Kevin Riley
· 1 year ago
Great! A voice of reason in the madness of Mega Launches. This is exactly why I refuse to promote these products. I will not have my list subjected to the hype that surrounds them.
Kevin
Rick
· 1 year ago
Wow - I had these 10 comments in my approve/box - all 100% positive!
Thanks to everyone who took the time to post a comment here (and get that groovy kind of Comment Luv Links!)
The times they are a changing - as veteran Internet marketers can smell the burnt toast and newbies, interestingly enough - are catching on much quicker - because of people like you.
Off to bed - can't wait to see what the morning brings.
Nathan Anderson
· 1 year ago
I hate to say it publicly... but I totally agree.
I love Brad and Andy, and I know they seriously deliver. But the entire Product Launch madness is just wrong. Stomper is probably one of the few "launches" that has a proven product with proof.
The entire "formula" approach is fundamentally flawed. It allows really terrible products to come to market and do well financially. The market does not have time to see the product and give an honest evaluation before the doors are closed. So the entire "launch" is sales to people who haven't seen the product... from affiliates that haven't used the product... to a marketplace that hasn't had a chance to give an opinion.
Recipe for disaster, IMHO.
I cannot argue, though, that the method WORKS. I just can't use it with a clear conscience.
You've heard of Parrotheads ...Jimmy Buffet fame. BTW, when I was in college we went to a Buffect concert...early 70's. About 300 people there and he was wasted. Ran into him latter that night passed out in a booth in a Samboo's Resturant....of course there are no more Samboo's resturants.
Anyway...maybe we should be Buttheads or should I say fans of Rick Butts could be Buttheads....or is that TM'd already :)
The era of email marketing is not longer the same. It is not about collecting email just to send some offers, asking people to take out their credit cards and buy, collecting a fat affiliate paycheck at the end of the month.
I receive at least 50 emails about Stompernet. This is common whenever there is a mega launch. But I don't unsubscribe them. I make them pay for polluting my inbox. I found a way which is faster and better than taking the trouble to unsubscribe.
Since I am using Gmail, I just type "Stompernet" and click on the Search Mail button, then click Unread and Delete button. It's gone within seconds.
I keep the subscription because I know for every email sent, they are losing money. It is costly to send an email these days.
It is not the size of your email database that matters, not the quality of the database either, it's about creating trust, the most valuable currency in the internet world.
Rick
· 1 year ago
Kim!
Have I disappointed you "offline?" LOL
Thanks for the very kind words...
Your friend, Rick
Rick
· 1 year ago
I thought my trackback link was visible - lemme go through this doggone Wordpress 2.5XX one more time because I sure WANT it to be visible.
Your site pinged mine Scott - and I approved the trackback so good job!
There are some really good and nice guys at Stompernet. I haven't subscribed because of the price. To tell you the honest truth I have received much less emails for the Stomper "launch" than for some other really crappy product launches.
I agree totally. Give the bad guys the boot, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Frans
Rick
· 1 year ago
Thanks Nathan for your comments.
Nathan is a world class good guy, and not a troublemaker like me, I respect that he took the time to share such powerful words here.
His http://SEOClub.com is a very valuable resource, and if launches were done on merit - SEOClub would be right at the top.
Tony
· 1 year ago
Cheers Ric
Must agree completely.
Tony
Rick
· 1 year ago
Just to be crystal clear - I think Brad Fallon and Andy Jenkins are good people, and that their information has helped a lot of folks.
The "Projectile Launch" method and all of it's components got approximately 1800 people to pony up a commitment to pay $9,600 per year - then within 3 months nearly 1000 of them had quit or refunded.
This sort of thing just sucks the oxygen out of the market for good products and creates skepticism for us all.
In general - massive amounts of content only serve to overwhelm and confuse someone who is trying to figure out how to make money online.
There are many ways to sell a product but the Product Launch method - as it is performed by Internet marketers with huge lists - is a doggone shame.
Frans Van Wyk
· 1 year ago
...Back again. Just thought about it. This is a double edged sword, or what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Isn't shooting down products that you know nothing about just as bad as promoting products you know nothing about?
Sorry boys I'm deleting the lot of you! :-)
Adhering to my own advice about throwing out the baby with the bath water I must, however, say that Rick's given some very good advice here. Rather follow one or two people thoroughly than ane hundred not at all.
Cheers
Frans
Rick
· 1 year ago
Thanks Frans,
Good point about being critical of a product one may know nothing about.
Still, I have to insist that it is the manner of promotion, combined with an evaluation of the quality of what a particular person is emailing you.
This can range from an offer-a-day with very little content, to all points in between.
And, more to the point, how does being on this list impact your success?
If it has you chasing opportunities, and opting into more lists that send you more offers, when you could be executing productive activities on your own core business, then you should evaluate this for yourself.
I'm trying to be helpful here - we all work alone - and it's very easy to confuse email marketing with "industry news."
Randy Smith
· 1 year ago
That was a refreshing change Rick :)
I did actually have one email from someone who uses Stomper and is happy with the service. He was the only one though - who gave figures and stats of how his traffic has increased.
And to be fair - it was a very non hypey and non pushy email.
As for the others ... well everything has already been said here!
Now I'll have to consider looking at the 'cure' - just to satisfy my own curiosity (darn you for being straight....lol)
So true. There's quite a lot of people thinking that a list is primarily a device to flog nonsense to unsuspecting subscribers. Those are the lists to dump very quickly. I, for one, don't subscribe to a list to be bombarded by bad sales pitches for worse products. I want good content. If I don't get it I'm out. I'm still on your list ain't I? :-) It's for the content, and if you send me an offer once in a while, I won't leave because I know who it's coming from. Stirring up a debate also helps to get/keep us thinking.
Keep up the good work.
Frans
scott Bradley
· 1 year ago
As a former Stompernet member, I can tell you first hand that there are a lot of talented folks working with Brad & Any, Like Jerry West, Leslie Rhode, and others.
The program can certainly help folks out, and I have seen some great successes (from others). However, the info overload is, or was for me, just too much to wade through. Good guys, good program, but you had better be prepared to hit the ground running fast to get your thousand/month membership money, and you had better have some skills to take advantage as well.
Dave Saunders
· 1 year ago
Great post! Every once in a while I do an unsubscribe purge and boot off every list that isn't providing some insight and value. After the trim down I'm always left with Dan Kennedy, John Reese and maybe 1 more will add on with each round. And obvisouly you're not on my boot-list or I wouldn't have read this. LOL
I recently trimmed out a number of side projects in favor of the stuff that really fit me. It's made me a little nervous but at the same time it's very liberating to trim the fat and focus on what matters...
David Ledoux
· 1 year ago
There's a scene in Monty Pythons "Holy Grail" where the local townspeople discover a woman with a wart on her nose, proclaim her a witch and want to burn her. A venerable advisor calms the uneducated peasants and get them to realize that drowning her would be a much better test of her witchiness.
Rick...today you're the voice of reason. Let's not burn the members of the "syndicate" who clogged our in-boxes this week...let's just stop listening to them.
I tried "Stomper" when it was brand new. My bottom line: TMI. (Too much information).
I like your stuff. Clean content, ACTIONABLE, bites small enough to digest at one sitting. You never give me heartburn!
And unlike many of the pseudo-gurus, your dispatches always give me genuine help, not just a thinly-veiled sales pitch.
Please keep up the good work and know that many of us think YOU are the "Uber-guru." I look forward to meeting you one day!
In Health, Dr. Dana Myatt
Find me online (and with a better website than before thanks to Rick) at www.DoctorMyatt.com
Alison Wonderland
· 1 year ago
Hi Rick!
Reminds me of the line from the movie "Network": "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more!" And we DON'T have to take it.
Let's all put a stop to this disturbing trend in the most effective way possible: Vote with your wallet or purse. Don't buy this over-hyped and over-priced stuff (while under the influence of the 'urgency' factor.)
Instead, let's watch for Dime Sales from the likes of Robert Plank and George Plus. Buy small, inexpensive products that we can actually use the same day. Buy it, use it, profit from it and then - and only then - offer it to people who listen to us (provided it's actually useful and profitable.)
Just so everyone knows, gmail has a nifty feature that seems to be under-used. Click the checkbox next to a message, then click the 'Report Spam' button. After that, all emails from that address go into the spam folder, where they will be deleted automatically after 30 days.
Alison (not using my real name becuase I have too many friends in the business...)
P.S. The URL I gave goes to a site offering a useful, free, no-strings-attached service. Enjoy.
Barbara Rozgonyi
· 1 year ago
Good questions to ask before you buy any continuing education programs, Rick. To me, you risk too much by recommending something you can't fully endorse from experience. To follow the conversation about this on twitter, go to http://summize.com/search?q=stompernet. Thought your readers might enjoy this resource: www.thetwitterguide.com Barbara @wiredprworks on twitter.com
Adam Baum
· 1 year ago
Here's a little fun math exercise.
Go through a fairly large sample of the emails from any list you're on. Make two columns on a sheet of paper (physical or electronic; it doesn't matter) labeled "Signal" and "Noise".
Put a mark in the Signal column for each email with useful info and no sales links. Put a mark in the Noise column for each email selling something without providing any useful info. Emails with some of each? Put a mark in BOTH columns.
Add up the marks and divide the Signal total by the Noise total. Multiply by 100%. If you're getting more than 2 emails a week from the list, subtract another 10%. That's their Signal-to-Noise ratio, adjusted for information overload.
The lists with a low Signal-to-Noise ratio are more interested in selling you stuff than helping you succeed. The math proves it!
Adam - the math geek from High School
Gary Gray
· 1 year ago
Hi Rick
This is just way too rad for poor little me to get my stroke damaged brain around. LOL
I do agree that those promo emails are mayby 1 percent something (if that) and 99 percent nothing! (kinda like what we bring home from the store, a little meat and a lot of packaging)
I will take a few minutes and unsubscribe from the ones that I just delete anyway. (You gotta take out the garbage before it starts smellin up the house, right...)
It's good to have a "take out the garbage" routine (maybe once a week)
Thanks for your words of wisdom and remember keep it simple (any more than one page is just a waste of time...yours and mine)
Right on man! Way to stick it to the clueless marketers.
I'm so sick of marketers that forgot why I subscribed in the first place. I was looking for some honest help, but all they offer is the same "buy the latest thing" crap.
I was fortunate to attend Michelle and Alejandro's webinar last night and it was a breath of fresh air in the smog of old-style direct marketing madness.
Off to unsubscribe from some lists...
Tom Justin
· 1 year ago
You are right, almost. There is gray between your black and white.
I'm very careful about what is sent to my lists. I try to review any product I recommend. I will only recommend products I haven't used if I know the producer well enough to know they do good work. If there is a long enough guarantee that protects the buyer if it doesn't live up to their expectations and if there is a way for the customer to contact the product provider.
I'll read Scott's book, but I also noticed that his affiliate program pays $.50 for each confirmed subscriber we send to him. He doesn't say if he pays affiliate commissions for other sales that our lists make once they do subscribe.
This has been a change in the industry over the past couple of years. There are clever promotions that might pay even 100% of a product promoted but the affiliate sees not a dime of future sales from their referrals.
When we added new products at First Step Internet Marketing, if we pay a commission on one, all affiliates who referred the customer, whether now or earlier also get paid on that sale. Most of these promotions are one time hits, then that customer and all future sales belong to them. Is that right? I don't know. But that book better be damn compelling before I promote my list for $.50 cents.
Regards,
Tom Justin
Gary Gray
· 1 year ago
Hi (again) Rick
Just took a quick look at the ebook and webinar links that you recomended.
Sorry to say I was NOT impressed on first look (just another list building flypaper page)
So I passed on BOTH offers.
Maybe later but NOT after just reading your post on this same stuff...
I think I would like to follow for a bit till I get to know more about your friends before signing up to another MAILING LIST...
If they really had the (uknows) Why not share without the squeeze and rather an invite to follow and or contact with some feedback.
I know that is a novel idea but what the hay. Isn't trust and relationship marketing what this new Web 2.0, Web 3.0 stuff all about?
But today I took Rick's advice and unsubscribed from a well-known marketer's list. I also deleted over 500 emails from that list. Take that, you money-hungry pig!
Thanks for putting me on the road to recovery, Rick!
Rick
· 1 year ago
I'm totally cool with a name squeeze page. Especially when you are offering an ebook that you spent a lot of time writing - and this one is well done.
It's funny and has some excellent answers for the chief destroyer of our success as pointed out by Rich Schefren - "Opportunity Chasing."
Yes, Scott pays a 50cent commission for each referral who opts in and downloads the ebook. It's part of how he gets such a viral campaign so wide - this book is spreading like a wildfire and good for him.
I notice Michelle MacPhearson Tweeted about it cause it's really good. (and why I put it in this post - because it is dead on topic.)
Yes, I'm sure Scott has a program he will offer to this list - but you can bet you won't get "launched" on. LOL
Rick
Rick
· 1 year ago
Could someone please Stumble this post?
Also, any help you can give me by Twittering it - or hitting me on Digg, Delicious, Facebook or any of the social sites you use.
I'd be very grateful!
Rick
frank kern
· 1 year ago
does this mean I should unsubscribe from myself? And if I do, will that lead to a state of zen-like tranquility? Sounds awesome!
Rick
· 1 year ago
Frank! That is hilarious!
I should have said that faculty are not included in my "usual suspects" round up.
This is all one man's opinion (and a few seem to agree) but mailing for your OWN stuff is expected.
Everyone knows what I'm talking about here and I don't put you in this group.
You do 2 things that really set you apart from the herd - you are very transparent - and you ALWAYS bring lots of content along with your hammer head, high thud-factor-priced excellent content.
I have a lot of respect for you Frank. Showing up here with a sense of humor is totally in alignment with who you are.
Rick
Christina Hills
· 1 year ago
Hey Rick,
I love this blog post!
I was just about to twitter how glad I am that I'm not involved in this whole Stomper Net Launch!
I only promote products or services that I actively use or am personally involved in.
Yes, I get tired of product launches because they happen so often, that I get worn out by them.
Yes, the product launch formula does work, but in the internet marketing space it's overdone.
I love your email reply to send back to the person.
And yes, I never like the 'do-not-reply@domain.com' does not build a relationship.
Cheers, Christina "The Shopping Cart Queen"
Ann Rusnak ~The Time Diva
· 1 year ago
Gee I missed all that stuff in my inbox. I unsubscribed from all these guys over a year ago. Switched to RSS Feeds.
I took the same approach I do about the news... I don't watch it. If it's that important, I'll eventually hear about it. Same thing with this product promotions. If the product is that great, I'll hear about after all the hype.
Yes, I formed a core group of mentor peeps that I follow. Saves me countless hours of email junk.
Frank! ROTFL! That was brilliant! And, no...I'm not going to unsubscribe. The last time I bought something from you, it gave the postman a hernia...and it was worth every penny I invested.
Russell
· 1 year ago
@ Alison Wonderland,
Tagging these emails as SPAM is very irresponsible! You opted in to everyone of these marketers list and agreed to receive their messages. Just because you don't like the messages does not classify them as spam.
Unsubscribe if you no longer want to receive them.
It is clueless people indiscriminately tagging everything as spam that has helped to create the ever-increasing problems with email deliverability rates.
If you opted in it is NOT spam! Take some responsibility (unsubscribe) and quit contributing to the problem.
I don't even think about tagging an email I subscribed to as spam - and I hope no one got this impression.
I know that a huge percentage of AOL users use the spam button as an unsubscribe tool - which is totally wrong.
I don't know anyone in the business who sends without an unsubscribe link at the bottom - although I still get people emailing me to do it for them, too!
Tom Fosson
· 1 year ago
Rick,
You are SO on the mark! I did just that yesterday when I started getting bombarded with Stompernet hype. Those that asked why, I replied that I was obviously not in their target market - even if I were making 10,000 per month, I am not so brain-dead as to pay nearly a thou a month for ANYTHING!
I've been watching the SN videos since they began promoting them a couple of weeks ago and have tremendous respect for Brad and Andy for the quality of their work, but most of the 'gurus' (and I use that term with tongue in cheek) just came across as greedy (Probably looking for a hefty monthly residual.)
A couple of promoters were actually honest in their sales letters announcing in the very beginning that it probably wasn't something most of their readers needed or could afford - those I remained with. But the others are now gone from my inbox. :)
I'm happy to see that I wasn't alone in reacting the way I did.
Thanks for a great post!
Tom
alan
· 1 year ago
If the Stompernet boys are so good why not do away with all the greedy blood sucking affiliates and their commissions. Instead offer the product at a more realistic price and let word of mouth advertising sell it virally. That way you get real recommendations by satisfied customers.Maybe offer those that promote successfully a discounted subscription or a really exclusive bonus that is not available elsewhere. I have losta lot of respect for many so called gurus who offer several programmes per week to their list. Lets really change the face of email marketing by spreading the word that it is unacceptable and get some sanity back. How abouta name and shame website, when they get hit by massive unsubscribes only then will they see the error of their ways.
Russell
· 1 year ago
Hey Rick - Regarding my "reporting as spam" post: I definitely didn't mean to imply you did that. My post clearly was directed at an earlier poster's comments and "advice" to use this as a solution.
I wouldn't normally butt in but it was just such misguided advice. And if others don't know NEVER to do this then they need to be told.
On another note - My impossible wish would be for a small group of us to compile a master list of those markters lists which are 1) Can't miss/must subscribe, and 2) Junk - unsubscribe as fast as possible.
Opinions would vary so widely as to make it nearly impossible for any real consesus...but it sure would be fun to look at such a list!
Of course not! If there's an unsubscribe link (that actually works), I use it. But you'd be amazed at how often this vital link is missing or broken.
My suggestion about the Report Spam button has more to do with real spam than with responsible mailing lists. I've been online for over 15 years and spambots have found virtually every email address I have. So I get 200-500 spams a day, despite multiple filtering systems.
I forward everything to a gmail account so I don't have to spend all day checking multiple mailboxes. I still know which email addy any given message came from...
Alison
Rick
· 1 year ago
Hi Russell,
Thanks for adding the "do not mark as spam" - it was very helpfu and much appreciated.
A "clean list" of who's good and who's not is a utopian visionary idea - I WISH it were possible but in my "small government - free market" world view, the moment you start something like this, new problems are created.
Who runs the list? Criteria.
In this case - the market gets to decide and vote with their mouse.
As Paul Simon wrote:
"One man's ceiling is another man's floor" Apartment House Blues
Joe Cheray
· 1 year ago
Rick finally managed to get over here and check you out, have had a few projects of my own going on and have just not had time to do much of checking out new blogs.
Anyway I do agree that the Stomper Net launch process is way overboard. I have been getting bombarded from the team at Stomper as well as some of their contacts in the industry to try this program out. Well one I can't afford the program and two after being told not to resubmit my site for their Stomper Site Seer report on the page that you sign up on I finally received an e mail telling me to re submit my site after initially submitting it. When I got my e mail telling me my report was ready the link took me to a page on the Stomper Site that said sorry invalid request.
So I am wondering who else out there has had this problem. To me this is just bad business to offer this for free and then not test your delivery method to make sure everyone can get the free product your offering.
It has certainly de railed me from ever getting in on this program.
When I say I am offering something for free I don't result to black hat tactics that make my free products look shifty. I really get irritated with sales letters that mask the word free like f.r.e.e or f ree to me that doesn't make the company pushing the product look like anything but a bunch of second rate hacks that have an 8th grade education.
While I am not a Guru per se in the industry my site does well enough in it's own right and I am happy with the direction it is going.
LIVE at 2pm EST I will be streaming on your computer on UStream.tv TODAY (that's in less than an hour) - just go to http://rickbutts.com/241/rick-butts-ustreamtv-m... and be sure to login to join the chat.
There will be plenty of fun - free drinks - and snacks and laughter!
Rick
Annie Binns
· 1 year ago
Great post, I have been thinking the same thing. I was embarrassed to see how many "guru" lists I'm on when they all converged at once in the last 48 hours for StomperNet. At least some of them were offering a few decent bonuses of their own with their affiliate link. I don't blame them for pushing it, I'm sure the commission is HUGE.
My takeaway from your post -- clean up the mailbox. It's not about StomperNet, it's about list abuse. It won't be tough to clean out at least half of my guru's today!
Walt Goshert
· 1 year ago
Rick,
Gave you a Digg to spread this valuable conversation.
Hey, I'm all for marketing. I love marketing.
Butt...
I hate when people abuse and waste my time.
Then, they get ousted from my "Circle of Trust"
"You tried to milk him, didn't you you sick son of a bitch?" Jack Byrnes
yobeeone
· 1 year ago
This is the first eBook I've downloaded and couldn't stop reading till the end! Although, I did stop long enough to run to my inbox and start deleting subscriptions. :]
Thanks for the heads up and for posting stuff like this, it helps a lot and in this case really opens the eyes!
Christopher Flores
· 1 year ago
RIght on. I'm ever the Anti-Guru. The Anti-Hype. I can write my fair share of "clear and present danger" writing ... but there's got to be a boundary where that stuff actually fits. This Stompernet ... which looks mighty valuable on it's own merits ... it's just been force fed by crazed promotions.
I've got my two or three mentors. I keep the rest of the newsletters for trend following. Since reducing my devotion to two or three successful people, I've seen my progress grow by leaps and bounds.
It's because I'm not trying to be like everyone else. I'm trying to adopt the mind of a successful person. Two or three will give you the conglomerate attitude you need to beget thoughts and plans to carry out what we're all after in life.
It doesn't mean, like most people think, that I'm missing out on other people's expertise.
This ebook was a great read. I unsubscribed from emails back in January when my inbox got bombarded with the huge promotion then. What set me off was people were just sending out the same affiliate email. Not changing a word of it.... so, I kept seeing the same email over and over again. Most didn't even change the headline.
It's not that difficult to customize an email. They showed how much they cared about their list...
Great post! I get tired of the guru promo train. Too much posing in many cases. I am not opposed to launches, hell, I enjoy seeing the process (anyone seeing Indiana Jones this weekend? Now that's a product launch!) but there does seem to be an undertone of sliminess to they way they all seem to jump in bed with each other on everything.
Michael Campbell
· 1 year ago
I was brought in as an "advisor" to Stompernet for a brief period over a year ago. They have great talent inside, but what I found was, instead of serving up made-to-order sushi grade slices of wisdom, they continually smacked your face with a whole bluefin until you unsubscribed ;-)
It was info overload x100. I advised them to do three things...
I suggested that Stompernet model a real university. To set up an interview process with an administrator and series of tests, to determine what level of courses ie: PPC 101, SEO 301, Copywriting 402, etc, that each new customer should start at.
I told them to set up coaching with an assigned mentor or teaching assistant. People don't want to be pushed information that they don't need, or that doesn't apply to their business model. They need personal time on the phone with a coach.
Finally I suggested something like a "call in radio show" over the internet, where customers could have access to a panel of gurus on a daily, or at least weekly basis. People need just-in-time answers, immediate solutions to problems they may be experiencing today.
Stompernet... it's been over a year, so here's my last piece of advice. Stop the launches before you irreparably damage your reputation. Just open the doors already.
If you were to focus your energy on setting up a proper curriculum, you would retain your membership through sequential selling, instead of having this continual "grand reopening" binge and purge of your membership. You can only hit the "panic button" or the adrenalin gland so many times before it stops working.
I hope that you eventually realize, that by opening the doors and leaving them open - like a real university - and offering a sequential program, you wouldn't have to lose credibility with these undignified launches.
You could continually replace the membership you lose through attrition, with a standard affiliate program and a constant stream of advertising from your affiliates, who believe in the faculty, the staff, the training, the institution and its history of success, instead of...
All units must be sold! Panic button + direct response + scarcity + urgency + all 2008 models must go + we'll throw in bonus tires + hot dogs AND rides for the kids! Just look for the giant pink inflatable gorilla on the roof...
My friends - inside Stompernet - each and every one of you, are way, way, better than this, you know you are! I know you. I coached many of you in your early years and launched several of your careers. You are very smart individuals, but your marketing model stinks and it's undignified. (In my humble opinion.)
Trust me Stompernet, the time to manage your reputation is now. Just open the doors already and model a real university... because if people start doing what I've already done - unsubscribe from all the direct marketers - who will hear the noise?
Jay Jennings
· 1 year ago
At the risk of facing pitchforks and torches, I'll disagree with you, Rick.
The latest Indiana Jones movie just opened and there was only one advertisement for it.
Oh, wait, there were a BILLION ads for it. Billboards, commercials, newspaper ads, etc. All from people who (probably) hadn't seen the movie.
Are you going to stop watching TV, or reading the paper, or looking at billboards? Probably not.
Promoting something you haven't used is EXACTLY the same. I think in general you can get a better response and gain more credibility if you can give a review rather than just a promo, but promos in and of themselves are not evil.
Besides, someone who is very good at a specific task can usually look at something and determine, based on their experience, whether the given method can give the desired results. I don't have to try every step of a Learn to Juggle course to be able to legitimately recommend it -- and I'm sure it's the same with some people and marketing subjects.
A promo is an ad, that's all. When new things come out, whether online or in the real world, there's a big advertising blitz.
Interesting opinion, I generally ignore all of the high ticket items unless it's something that has excited / interested me during the pre-launch stage.
If I was to buy something everytime I got an email I would have gone bust long ago, and I've already got hundreds of DVD's that I need to work my way through.
Andrew
Lorraine Grula
· 1 year ago
This is a necessary thing to talk about but one most people shy away from.
Thanks to Rick for bringing it up. I agree with him. Lots of marketers write their sales letters in an disingenuous way which makes it sound like they know for sure the product they are endorsing indeed works. How would they know if they haven't used it? They don't. But that doesn't stop them from assuring their trusty list that it's worth the $$$$.
Michael Campbell wrote a spot-on analysis said and agree with him 100%. Personal one-on-one is the most helpful thing. For which, I hired none other than Rick Butts!
I was a member of Stompernet for a while but could not justify the $800/month. I don't care how good the information is, that's not affordable to anyone unless they're making a bundle.
To Jay Jennings post above, I would say that an endorsement is different from a promo. An endorsement implies personal knowledge and belief in a product. That is much different from a promo or ad that is inherently positive and obviously produced by the people who want you to try their product. An endorsement has an element of trust to it not found with an advertisement.
Rick, I'm not sure why you decided to single out one organization, but you have your own reasons or agenda I'm sure.
Better advice would be to unsubscribe from people who never send you anything but swipe files. Because that's what you *really* mean, right?
I had to laugh a little about "affiliates who mail without knowing the product." While that's true of any affiliate program, it was especially amusing given what followed.
Michael Campbell mailed his list with his Stompernet affiliate link less than 2 weeks ago, but his comments on your other post clearly indicate that he's not aware of what we do...
While his 'suggestions' are interesting, we're already doing almost all of that. We have personal coaching for all members, we have 4 'faculty office hour' calls each week (holidays like Memorial Day reduce this to 3), and the recent SMARTS course was very much like (more than) what he suggests for organizing the curriculum.
Thanks for confirming it isn't just me having these kinds of thoughts about product launch tactics. Every time I get another email that says..."oops, our server crashed" I always think, if you're so darned good at this how come you didn't plan for the obvious. Who in their right mind would want to "study" or "purchase" from someone who claims to be an expert worth hundreds of thousands of dollars an hour to consult with yet doesn't manage to get the basics done right. Just my two cents from the outside!
Linda
Rick
· 1 year ago
To Dan Theiss:
"Rick, I'm not sure why you decided to single out one organization, but you have your own reasons or agenda I'm sure."
Hey Dan - I love your work and have a tremendous amount of respect for you - along with the entire Stompernet faculty!
Two reasons (no agenda)
1. I'm commenting on the most recent thing to happen in my own email Inbox - it could have gone down on any of a number of weeks for any number of launch blasts. Internet marketing is a moving parade and Stompernet just happened to be the float in front of my view this week.
2. The launch thing has just gotten worse over the last year - and it seems beneath Stompernet's values and ethics to choose to squeeze the market this way - for a high-value BRAND that has been in the marketplace for a year and a half?
I'm all for an Indiana Jones campaign, as one commenter tried to make a comparison for, but StomperU is not a 120 minute "event" - it is a 365 Days a Year business.
While working with Brian Tracy several years ago - I remember he once said that a blindspot companies make is believing that "a group of smart people can't make a bad decision."
Regardless of the revenue spike, this was, in my humble but accurate opinion IMHBAO, a bad decision.
Perhaps it's time to stop defending and start listening?
Once again - these comments are in no way meant to defame an excellent product or the people who create it!
Respectfully, Rick Butts
Dan Thies
· 1 year ago
Thanks, Rick.
My comments on why we chose to do a launch process this time, instead of just opening the doors and leaving them open, are awaiting moderation over @ Nate's blog (http://nathananderson.us/ar/45).
But there are good reasons why we did it, including the ability to show people "results in advance" by giving away good instruction.
It's unlikely that Stompernet's 'full membership' coaching program will see another 'product launch.' Most of our courses will still need to be sold all at once, for the same reason that colleges don't want people to register for a class in the middle of a semester.
We're not just selling a 'box of DVDs' here. There is a lot of value in bringing a group of people in together, and working with them as they go through a training program.
If you just throw the doors open, you can't have a free seminar at the end of the course, you can't have a weekly lecture/webinar, you can't hand out assignments and get the peer review & support unless the students are all on the same week of the program.
But you were really talking about the noise in the market, from our affiliates, right?
Maybe you have a different perspective than I do, because outside of people who actually contribute to Stompernet, I've only seen two marketers mail affiliate links in the past month - Michael Campbell and David Bass. (Yes, Michael's excellent newsletter is on your unsubscribe list!)
Now, I know that we have a lot of affiliates, so someone who subscribes to everything is probably being whipped to death by affiliate promotions, not just ours. It's just that, when you are as good at this as we are, everyone seems to want a piece.
We don't have final results yet, but it looks 9 out of the top 10 affiliates will turn out to be people who play a large role in our community - as faculty, members, etc.
Not doing launches won't stop the people who will mail anything that can make them a buck. The only way to do that is to have an invitation-only affiliate program, a subject that's sure to come up internally after this launch.
For anyone here who thinks that our launch was an exercise in 'false scarcity,' I don't know what to say.
If you've never tried to actually *do* personal coaching, 1:1 support from instructors, and all that stuff at this at scale, it's probably hard to understand that there are real limits on the number of people we can support.
I'd like to think that we did this launch the "right way" from our side - lots of meaty free content, a free tool that everyone can use, case studies, and a lot of detail on what we do.
But maybe you're right, Rick - maybe it doesn't matter how well we do it, if too many people are talking about it from the biased perspective of an affiliate.
Hey Rick - Excellent post. I routinely examine my email subscriptions and unsubscribe from things that aren't adding value in some way. I must be doing a decent job of guarding my inbox because I didn't get a single email about StomperNet. ;-)
I just wanted to publicly thank you for continuing this conversation.
Although it was not my intent to walk up to the biggest bully on the block (Stomper) and kick him in the balls like you did, it seems that my suspicion and estimation of how raw the market is with the entire launch bullshit was dead on.
I think the noise is loud and it's time we turn down the music. I've contributed heavily to this noise over the years and have been evaluating my business as of late.
Launches are a part of marketing and have their place. I also find many good marketing strategies in the very emails from the same people that send a lot of spam.
I have unsubscribed from those that provide no value.
I also see that the art of relationship building has been lost and is finally on the return.
Keith
Alejandro Reyes
· 1 year ago
all i gotta say is wow. when i read this post i started to trip out because i talked to 3 other people that didn't know eachother say they were unsubsribing themselves from anyone who sent a stompernet email.
and you created a post about it - NUTS man.
GREAT post and I'm glad you were on the call. Looking forward to chatting more bro!!
Thanks Rick for bringing attention to Scott's INCREDIBLE free report, "The Internet Marketing Cure." I sat down to breeze though it late Thursday night, exhausted from a week of teleseminars and interviews.
And found myself totally sucked in, read the whole thing word for word, even tweeting some of my favorite choice lines.
Scott & Keith outdid themselves with this one, and it gelled perfectly with what Alejandro & I spoke on during our teleseminar (which I also thank you for bringing to your blog readers).
PLF made me a lot of money. I still love the product, but I've never done a "internet marketing" launch with the PLF formula because of the vehemence with which people react to these huge crash and burn launches.
A good product will gain market traction without the overinflated and broken promises so common today in our industry's launch cycle.
There are fundamental differences between affiliates, paid faculty members and the business owners. A faculty member may also be an affiliate - nothing inherently wrong with that but it does depend upon how they are compensated as faculty members.
I'm assuming that the more revenue Stomper generates, the more they get paid. It doesn't matter who brings in the new members. As stomper revenue increases so does "Brandy's" paychecks. Anyone else working for stomper with the same financial arrangement should not also be affiliates...that is where a conflict of interest comes into play.
Anyone profit-sharing Stomper revenue who encourages buyers to clear their cookies would be engaging in affiliate theft - or more accurately denying affiliates of their earned commissions.
Sometimes affiliates are told that there is a "first cookie wins" setup - this means that the original referrer would get the commission regardless of when the customer buys - unless they clear that cookie.
If a user clears all cookies and then click a new affiliate link - the credit goes to the new referrer - and the original referrer doesn't get credit.
It is a whole lot easier to not use a "first cookie" setup but to use a "last cookie" meaning the latest cookie replaces any old ones and the last affiliate link you follow gets credit for your purchase.
I could be wrong but I don't think 1ShoppingCart.com even allows a 1st cookie setup, and since most IMers use 1SC the point is moot.
I do happen to know that Colin "Google" McDougall aka: Bull in a China Shop of Vancouver Canada - goes through incredibly sophisticated hoops to segment his affiliates into separate autoresponders so that on all follow ups the original affiliate referral does get credit for the sale.
I won't reveal his method for doin this but since it is not cookie based - it is a very powerful and ethical way to honor the people who send him traffic - so that they get paid for bringing a customer to him - and not get cheated out of a commission while he follows up with them directly.
To both Dan Theis and Colin, two people I really respect, I ask that you both ease up on aggressive language.
This has been a pretty decent and informative conversation so far - and one that has been of benefit to my readers - for whom I'm working
Rick Butts
Colin "Google" McDou
· 1 year ago
Russell, Dan and everybody reading this thread,
First of all I want to publicly apologize for the perception of "taking down StomperNet" from Dan's comment...
Dan, I posted some stuff on my blog that I am VERY embarrassed about back in November...
Let's clear the air on that first of all
Folks, NEVER post to your blog when your emotions are not in a logical and rational place...
I was reading through some email's from my members that were ex-stompers....
I had an error in thinking...
I knew the SMARTS launch was about to happen so....I used some testimonials as inspiration for some posts I wrote from a VERY emotional place....
You see, while presenting at an industry event I received a phone call from home that my beloved father had been diagnosed with Leukemia...
My apologies, Colin
Dan Thies
· 1 year ago
Sorry if my words have been poorly chosen, Rick. It is not my intent to offend. However, Colin is attacking the integrity of our affiliate program, and of our organization, and he's using your blog to call attention to these claims.
This was not a "first cookie wins" offer. You can't do that if you're going to allow affiliates to offer bonuses for signing up through their link.
There was, in fact, no good reason for an affiliate to ask people to clear cookies before clicking their affiliate link, but clearing cookies would have NO EFFECT anyway - once that affiliate's link was clicked, the cookie would have been updated.
In our last launch (SMARTS) we didn't allow bonuses, and in fact captured affiliate's IDs in the opt-in record so that we could mail *their* affiliate links from our own autoresponder. We even let affiliates set a cookie with a video player embedded on their own sites.
Colin says that "insiders" get to mail last, which is also complete nonsense. Any affiliate can mail whenever they choose to, and "insiders" get the same affiliate emails from Stompernet that everyone else does.
The fact that this particular affiliate mailed fairly late is due to his own situation & travel. If people decided to buy from him to get the bonuses that he offered at his own expense, that's their business.
Every affiliate has been able to see the 'scoreboard' in the affiliate emails, we even ran a scoreboard on opt-ins well before the launch. My name was on there, as were several other faculty members. None of our affiliates have objected to faculty members mailing as affiliates during any of our past launches.
Colin isn't even an affiliate as far as I know, so it's hard to understand what his point is, other than self-promotion, and trying to drag a competitor's name through the mud. He has been given the facts, and he has chosen to continue with these statements in spite of the facts.
@Russell, I don't know why the means used to compensate faculty members for the work that they do would create a "conflct of interest," since their interest in any case is to get people signed up.
I do know that if Ed Dale had to choose between participating as faculty and mailing as an affiliate, there would be a strong financial incentive for him to stop helping our members and be "just an affiliate."
Excluding faculty, Stompernet members, or other contributors from the affiliate program would absolutely create a conflict of interest that would work against the interests of our members. So, we're not interested in doing that, and there is no reason to do so, because of the following simple fact.
"Insiders" do not have any special advantage as affiliates, except for the credibility that comes from being part of our stellar faculty, along with the perspective and internet marketing skill that comes from being a member and participating in our training and coaching.
That's the truth.
Rick
· 1 year ago
NO MORE STOMPER-BASHING...
I am thrilled at the volume of discussion here but I will not allow any more comments that fuss at Stompernet.
The title of my post mentioned Stompernet Launch emails ONLY AS AN EXAMPLE - because that was happening on the day I wrote the article.
It could just have easily been ________ (you name the launch.)
The POINT here is about YOU, as an individual entrepreneur, eliminating distractions and getting down to work and choosing content carefully.
The worst thing any of us can actually say about the Stompernet people is that they have produced more excellent training, tools, than anyone else online!
8-)
I will delete any further posts that take personal shots here.
Let's all get back to work - and focus on the positive! 8-)
Rick
Welly
· 1 year ago
Rick,
Thanks for being so true about hypey mega product launches. I'm still subscribed to some of them using another less used email addie just to see what's going on in the IM world.
Just to keep myself up to date you see. But I must admit that sometimes they distract me as well :P
Anyway thanks once again for speaking your mind and I agree 100% with you!
The panic button and adrenaline thing...wow! That single idea is the best way to sum up the whole thing in a nutshell.
re: News and overload
I watch Comedy Central's Daily Show and Steven Colbert more than CNN. Why? Because the news is so damn depressing I'd rather have someone give me the headlines with a laugh than watch straight news with no chaser.
Rick is my Colbert. You get the "news" but with inspired commentary rather than regurgitated, recommended affiliate information.
I am taking all the credit for it too. Simply because Rick asked what I thought before he "launched" this blog and I agreed, which, I am positive, is the whole reason this blog is here today. :)
Colin "Google" McDou
· 1 year ago
Dan,
What Rick said, let's get back to work...
We are all way too busy for this...
I am in no way calling into question the value Stomper delivers to customers....
Dan, Andy, Brad et al....
Do not take any of the discussions here as a slam.
Do consider this an opportunity for improvement...
I will contact you within the next few weeks to have an offline discussion about my rant...
BTW, I have removed the post on my blog...
Let's get back to work...When the dust settles we will talk...
My friends at Stomper.... Once again, I have the utmost respect for you folks....Social proof was not written on my blog as a direct result of friendships I have with some of your faculty members... Please guys, consider what I have said as an opportunity for improvement...This industry sometimes gets a bad name and it IS this industry that is my passion in life.... I don't think you intentionally set out to do wrong...Anyway...
Cheers to all following this thread, now get back to work....
Talk soon....
Colin
Davion | Learn To Make Real Mo
· 1 year ago
Excellent! I agree with you totally. This was why I wrote about this in my blog as well some time back. A lot of list owners are now only concerned with "selling" and seldom have good content to offer their readers.
Reading, and then sending all of my facebook i-marketing friends to the "internet cure" download was the best $3.50 I've made! :)
I agree with the "adrenaline rush and info overload" reference made in this thread... My psychiatrist actually thought I was Manic Depressive!
Timothy Caron
· 1 year ago
Quite frankly, I think your right on.
I'm new to marketing and promotion and I'm sick and tired of all the hype. But I will have to admit that some of the content that I receive is valuable, I find it sometimes difficult to decypher the information and put into bite size pieces that I can understand and then apply.
But unfortunately I have to go the free way instead of the paid way, and some of the things I have seen sound good but the price tags are enormous.
I too got caught up listening to the Stompernet Crew. Good on the videos and audios, (which by the way s what I'm learning) but come on now, if there first to market and it's never been seen before, where do they get all these testimonials.
Wouldn't you have to see proven results from customers in order to have testimonials?
I believe in content by all means, but make it worth something to the customer, what are they going to get out of it instead of the guru.
Where did they come up with that name "guru" anyway. Tim
George Kedourie
· 1 year ago
Wow! That was all very interesting indeed. Not sure whether to open my mouth or keep it shut. Lots of comments here from people I have learned from and some friends too. The first couple of launches that I experienced were 'very exciting' and had me twisting and turning in my sleep as it were. Now I see them coming and even if the freeline stuff is good I now find the whole process incredibly boring and predictable. Servers always crashing! etc
It takes a while in this world to develop the criteria necessary to be able to choose wisely whom to follow and learn from. My list would have six to ten people on it as my main sources of learning with three or four of them at the core.
Somebody said something about making a list...
Best, George
Jorge Arguello
· 1 year ago
Rick,
Normally I don't even read all your stuff only because it is SO MUCH already, but I like the doru's and I do like some of your posts. You're a real dude. Anyway, enough but I'd like to say this . . .
Launches are necessary to get your product out but it's the "good ol boy" mentality and ad nauseum promotion from EVERY FRIGGIN marketer out there that get's me.
What I like about Frank Kerns as well as the stomper boys fallon and jenkins is that they at least give you lots of CONTENT for free and if you study the FREE stuff you get so much that you can implement it, see if it works and go from there. Most online entrepreneurs should, and I hope recognize that.
However I read a post above from the ex faculty dude and I agree that they need to set it up better, meaning the stomper boys, because for the normal human entrepreneur, it is just so much that even a quarter of the membership can be so overwhelming.
I'm not stomping them though and I love to receive that stuff from them. I mean just look at how they create the VIDEOS!! That in itself is so wonderful to learn from . . . I know that I have and have things like that in the works too.
Anyway, thanks Rick for starting the controversy here and keep it coming too. It is good to purge the over done launches but launches are part of everything. If there is no noise about your product who the hecks gonna know?
Just MHO, that's all. Thanks bro and saying HI to all the people I know who posted here and there are quite few.
Peace and Love - Jorge
Butts-A-Plenty
· 1 year ago
Meanwhile, back at the outhouse...Things were piling up.
I'm sure there have been several bank tellers, who are handling large deposits from these Stompernet promoters the past week or so, who are asking, "Hey - wait a minute. This isn't Stompernet money is it? We can't accept money from that."
In other words, they are laughing all the way to the bank.
-roll eyes-
BobW
· 1 year ago
Good one Rick, Today I counted no less than 15 emails from 15 different marketers all touting the "DIY Minisite Kit" Volume 2. While I blame nobody but myself from subscribing to these marketers I do sometimes wonder how I did. Then it hit me. Its those flaming "giveaways" where you have to opt in to receive a free gift.
Recently I purchased Joe Vitale's book "Zero Limits", and after reading "The Internet Marketing Cure" I'm doing a 'Hooponopono' (Joe's book explains this) on my subscription list: Clean, clean, clean.
I've done business with a lot of marketers and I know whom I can trust and those I know I can't (bad help desks etc etc), so at the moment I'm creating a list of the trusted marketers who I know I can happily deal with in the future. To all others I've subscribed to its bye-bye.
in the meant time I've got a niche to service and hopefully the email distractions will lessen. Regards Bob
Nice to see a stack of quality participants in a quality discussion about the header that the IM niche has taken...
There is so much great insight and opinion in the Internet Marketing Cure... just a must-read for anyone even remotely thinking about getting involved. Thanks, Scott, for that piece of work.
And thanks, Rick, for stating what should be the obvious by now:
This Marketers-who-market-to-marketers thing has gotten shamelessly ridiculous. The Pre-launch/Launch/Post-Launch pounding that occurs for nearly everything is already burning itself out.
We even had a massive Pre-Launch Hype Machine go down for a product that teaches you how to have a massive Pre-Launch Hype Machine.
It's like a cash-sucking, ATM machine, bank account-exploding salesletter that sells you a product to show you how to write cash-sucking ATM machine, bank account-exploding salesletters....
This whole incestuous niche has dazzled and smoke-and-mirrored and exaggerated and sensationalized and idolized and pedestalized until there is no sense of reality anymore. There may not even BE a reality.
Honestly, the time is long overdue to take a step back and re-evaluate what is going on in this war-torn niche-- ny suggestion, as a place for the relatively uninitiated to start, is to: Make sure you are thinking like a Marketer and not thinking like a Mark.
All this overblown sensationalism that hits you from every angle is a good study, as long as you are looking to learn from it and don't get too emotionally involved (as in pull out your WALLET on auto-pilot).
Each of us know where our level of integrity will allow us to go. If you feel that someone has crossed a line in their marketing practices , cut 'em loose. You aren't going to miss much by being on six lists instead of forty.
Choose the voices you let in wisely.
Learn from those who resonate with your own set of values.
Let someone else Overhype and Underdeliver.... You got your own style.
Really, I hate to pile on, but how could anyone think that it was a good idea to open up today for an hour?
I've tried to defer any harsh thoughts toward SN during this conversation - but...
The pure hubris of this organization ignoring time zones, and people's schedules was the height of business-egotism.
Seriously, could there have been a bigger clue that they think the target customers they are looking to sell to - are that stupid?
Rick
Casino Affiliate
· 1 year ago
I have just wasted my time reading all that nonsense. You guys and gals have no clue about online business.
Start marketing to customers, not to each other.
That is incest at its best !
Adios!
Alan
· 1 year ago
Wow, what a fascinating spectacle...
"Plus cela change, plus cela reste la même chose" - Alphonse Karr (1808-90)
( translation: "The more things change, the more they remain the same." )
Oh sorry, I'm on the "wrong" blog...
I thought this was a discussion about the state of the network marketing industry.
And now, something completely "different"...
Anything new under the sun ? ;O)
BobW
· 1 year ago
"Wouldn't you have to see proven results from customers in order to have testimonials? "
Good point, Tim. I have noticed that you can go to several sites selling different ebooks etc with the same "testimonials" staring back at you. I think there must be a 'testimonial market' out there. It could be more lucrative than selling ebooks etc.
"Where did they come up with that name "guru" anyway."
Probably the same place where all those "secret" methods, formulas, and what-have-you come from. I've bought several must-have 'secret' stuff ebooks only to find that the 'secret' was often let out of the bag ages ago.
If the trend for marketers to sell to marketers is going to continue, I'd like to see more non-IM niche material, than the same old stuff re-hashed ad nauseum.
I have noticed that some of the rehashing is now put to audio and video. While that might be a trend as well, I don't know if everyone agrees with paying for online streaming media.
Personally I'd rather download the stuff and burn it to a dvd or cd for offline use. The other thing with downloading the media means that if the vendor goes belly up you still have the goods you paid for. This is probably off topic, but something these 'gurus' should consider.
Probably why IM niche works so well for some is that gullible noobs (I'm one) are hungry for information. At $7.00 a pop that's not too bad a price but the super hypey expensive ones are just downright silly.
Keith says it right: "This Marketers-who-market-to-marketers thing has gotten shamelessly ridiculous. The Pre-launch/Launch/Post-Launch pounding that occurs for nearly everything is already burning itself out.
We even had a massive Pre-Launch Hype Machine go down for a product that teaches you how to have a massive Pre-Launch Hype Machine.
It's like a cash-sucking, ATM machine, bank account-exploding salesletter that sells you a product to show you how to write cash-sucking ATM machine, bank account-exploding salesletters…."
I'm still subscribed to Scott's list, so I did read his email this morning which directed me here.
I got totally brassed off with all this "mining the miners" at the Mass Control launch. I characterised it as "Diarrhoea Out of Control" marketing. Now I discover that the "Digital" Ebola virus was the underlying cause!
I was also brassed off with Stompernet's part in the email blasts, which I mentioned (very politely) in a comment to one of Brad's videos on YouTube. Rather than addressing the criticism that comment was deleted.
Such treatment led me to conclude that I didn't want the Stompers to have any more of my money so I resigned from Stompernet (my Simple membership that is, not the emails). It seems that Stomper "customer services" ignored that request. I know I really should check my credit card statements and my spam folder more carefully, but it seems they're still charging me, and I'm still a member. Lucky old me!
Actually I keep all the emails because I can instantly tell what the new junk is because all the emails (with very little change) all arrive about the same day. It's actually hilarious because all the affiliate pages tell you to change the emails but the spammers, sorry, Gurus don't bother.
I am now almost innoculated against the BS and really buy very little now. I also refuse to pay $1000 for anything, nothing is worth that. I detest the 2 ton of video, books, scripts etc. that they want to send you.
Seriously, who has the time to check out all the forums you should track, the ebooks you should read, the videos you should watch and still produce your own original products, write an article a day, monitor and track your adwords campaigns, manage your split tests and rewrite your headlines and web pages for optimising for search and maximising your CTR and ROI.
I gotta tell you, I'm just exhausted by it all so the 'Cure' was a breath of fresh air and so empowering. Thanks to you all.
Regards
Andy Clarke
· 1 year ago
Hey
I agree. I even registered a domain, to write a similar report and....Scott beat me to it with a BETTER report.
Few Points...
ONE It's not always the product launched....but those that they JV with.
TWO It's when they get lazy,....and most of them are....and send "canned emails" that I get really mad.
I see Lisa Preston posted above so let me encourage those of you who worry about spending the time building a relationship form her example.
In Nov 2005 she promoted a Set of Self Hypnosis CDs with Resell Rights of mine.
She sold 63 sets(from memory) at $397 each with what I believe was a list of about 8,000.
A guru - not so much in the crowd critcised here - but still a guru - had a list of 500,000(or so he said) - and he sold 6.
You do the maths.....a list about 1/8 the size sells more than 10 x as much.
Now back then I believe Lisa was personally contacting all new signups. Not customers or affiliates - but simple signups. She would see where they lived....and write what was obviously a personal message related to where they lived....and she was doing this years ago.
I wish I had follwoed her example!
Anyway - my point is - relationship counts.....and yes...relationship sells too.
THREE We must never forget - nobody holds a gun to our heads. We don't have to stay on their list and we don't have to buy.
So the real enemy is within, which of course marketers like politicians are reluctant to say for fear of upsetting their customers and prospects.
We seem to have this insatiable desire.....not to miss out. It's like a ringing phone....it doesn't matter what we are doing....we HAVE to find out what or who it is!
A few monsth back I reduced my emails to 12 form about 70.
So my advice...select a few people you trust....and ignore the rest. There is too much opportunity out there to worry about missing out on the "latest greatest" thing.
So well done Rick and Scott...
Andy Clarke
Frans Van Wyk
· 1 year ago
Back to Stomper Bashing again!
If I don't like watching advertisements I switch off the TV. I don't place an advert in the paper trashing the product. If you indiscriminately sign up to newsletters don't trash the product they promote. By all means unsubscribe from whatever newsletter you want but don't bash a product which can only be faulted in one way, and that is that it has too much content.
Some of you moan about faculty members promoting the product but then in the same breath ask if they know or tested the product they're recommending. Obviously if you're a faculty member you know everything about the product.
Please Rick, you've made some legitimate points about some marketers not using newsletters to give content but only to market, but don't let this degrade into a flame Stomper contest! That's not the style I've gotten accustomed to from you.
Jeff Miles
· 1 year ago
Rick u kick 'butt' man !
Fact : 98% internet marketers earn less than 500/month .
And most lose tons of money on wasted courses and seminars chasing what they believe to be easy millions.
Personally I stopped wasting my time and money in promoting affiliate marketing about 2 years ago.
Its too hard, not a dependable source of income and the competition is getting tougher.
Then there are products and services you should not promote because you are destined to lose most if not all your commissions.
Its a tough learning curve. And even then its a bigger pain to make it work.
I found an alternative source of income and its passive income.
Its about investing like the pro’s to make consistent money from ‘under the radar’ investing alerts and opportunities without spending hours on all the mind numbing research .
Its done for you by 21 teams of private analysts teams with 158 staff to research and analyse the best opportunities that 99% of the investment crowd don’t have access to.
There are short term, long term investment and also trading opportunities to make monthly income too with 80% winners.
you can make 30%-50% annual to 100%- 400% annually from investment opportunities.
Plus also 30-50% monthly from trading alerts from top grade private analysts, you won’t have access to any other way.
If anyone wants to become a member email me for more info .... jeffmiles1968 @ yahoo.com
Dan Thies
· 1 year ago
@Timothy Caron, The case studies are from real members. Stompernet's coaching program has been operating since November 2006, we invited people in again in May 2007, and then again over the last week.
Prior to opening Stompernet, Brad and Andy ran two very successful coaching programs with smaller groups of 60 or so people.
So, having real customers is how you get real case studies from real customers. I'm not a lawyer, but I think making up case studies and testimonials is a crime in these United States.
I'm sorry if the SEO and PPC instruction we gave in our videos didn't satisfy you, but it did help a lot of people.
@Rick, you've lost me, friend. Joining our program is a major decision and commitment, not just financially but time wise. The people who joined yesterday were apparently quite happy that they have a second chance.
Excuse us for not staying open longer, but we were trying to make up for duplicate orders, so that we could close the doors and get back to work. Mission accomplished.
If you can explain how to stay open for a few hours *and* cover every time zone, and the explanation doesn't involve a 'flux capacitor,' I'd love to hear it.
@Scott, our launch was quite successful. We didn't know what to expect, with the long weekend and everything else working against us.
The winner of our office pool guessed about 200 members below the final number. All of our fast action bonuses were sold last week. That's as close as I'll get to announcing how many members joined us, how many we have, etc.
I'm sorry that you hacked into our system so early in the SMARTS course... but I'm glad you decided not to steal the entire thing - that's real honest of you. I'm not sure why some people think you can teach something without laying a foundation first.
I already started unsubcribing since receiving email from Scott couple of months back. But i must admit, i still subscribe to other Internet Marketing "Gurus" (as what they call). This is because of my short exposure to internet marketing. i have in day job for 13 years or so and the idea of subscribing to many of the Internet Marketing Gurus is learn from them.
But couple of months ago, during the series of launches, my inbox go flooded with lots of email with their promotions.
I already downloaded Scott's report and I must again start unsubscribing to most of them. This report has reminded me again to have my focus back and concentrate on what well give me long term benefits.
119 comments to this post - it's starting to look like a forum!
linda
· 1 year ago
Don't get your hopes up too high that "unsubscribing" is the way to take back control of your inbox regarding launch onslaught.
I have unsubscribed from the "gurus" multiple times (including from all opt-ins and the main database) and STILL I am receiving countless messages from many of these folks. It's rather frustrating and further erodes my confidence in their backoffice systems.
My idea of unsubscribe is "no further contact ever, period". However, since it's not working as I'd hoped (and I've been monitoring this for about two years now), I'll be taking a different approach in future.
Lorraine Grula
· 1 year ago
Having had a relatively long career as a producer of "information," (I worked as a writer, journalist and video producer for 20 years) please allow me to be my nuanced nerd self and throw in some thoughts most people might never consider.
Marketing is inherently biased, skewed information designed to make you feel positive about the product. Marketing copy might not contain any real "truth." Manipulated spin with a grain of truth does not count as truth in my book but for marketers and advertisers, such a a minuscule grain is enough to proclaim a pile of hype as gospel.
CONTENT, a word thrown around too liberally in internet marketing imho, SHOULD mean unbiased, factual, non-emotional, information designed to further the reader's understanding of the subject. This is what people are looking for. Quality, educational material that helps them know what to do.
Obviously, a marketing newsletter won't contain any good content since the two are incompatible by their definition. I have come to the conclusion that many marketers simply do not know how to provide quality content because they are ALWAYS in sales mode.
So people are looking for quality, non biased information from marketers. It is not going to happen. Just like Stephen King will never write a romance novel.
Rick, that this thread will not die should tell all of US in Internet Marketing that our subscribers have had enough and they aren't going to take it anymore.
Sharon Bray-McPherson
Timothy Caron
· 1 year ago
Dear BobW,
Thanks for the boost. Now I know that every business should plan accordingly but not to the point where they want to take everything out of the pockets of honest hard working people.
A matter of fact I myself do not ask anything of my customers except a name and email address and that they fill out a form to get there Free Download, it's that simple.
I like to keep things simple. And I also believe that content is King! IF it is, then you will have a paying customer in the future should you plan (there's that word again) accordingly.
Besides my ethics and faith will not allow me to cheap, lie or steal from or too a customer. It's Just good business.
Tim
Timothy Caron
· 1 year ago
Dear Dan Thies,
My appologizies, I was not trying to direct all of my concern upon the Stompernet Team, but in general.
In regards to: I'm sorry if the SEO and PPC instruction we gave in our videos didn't satisfy you, but it did help a lot of people.
I do not believe I mentioned anything concerning the matter or even direct that toward Stompernet.
I personally felt that the membership was very heafty for the average newbie. Thata all.
Tim
Adam T
· 1 year ago
Someone mentioned that only 98% of internet marketers make $500 or more per month. It's also true that probably those 98% try to many things, quit to early, don't persist long enough to actually be successful, and many don't even consume the material that they purchase. It just sits on a self somewhere.
That is not to say that those products are bad. Some are crap and some are very good. Most all have a refund period.
I don't see what is wrong with selling tools to internet marketers or as Scott says, selling shovels to miners. People need these tools and information in order to succeed online. I really don't see what the point is. There are many opportunities in many niches to make money online and therefore many opportunities to sell tools and information to help those succeed. Many people get into selling internet marketing related material because they have not found a niche that they are passionate about and they are passionate about internet marketing because they are consumed with internet marketing at the time.
Product launches are great ways to launch a product and a business. It helps you create a buzz about your product and get people talking about it and have it because a community household name.
Scott talks about how he wrote this book for noble causes etc...but he really wrote it to create controversy to build his list and launch his relationshipincome.com product. Just like his first report about Adsense was to launch his clickflipping product.
Clickflipping used some of the same scarcity tactics, had a lot of people promoting it and was outrageously expensive for a product that wasn't very good and wasn't quite ready for launching. IF you look at alexa.com you'll see that clickflipping.com is ranked 1.2 million for the week and 745,000 overall which basically means that no one is using the product that cost $1000 to signup and then $300 monthly.
But I agree that in the future building relationships over hype is the way to go. But you also need to get the attention, as Rich Schfren says, and a great way to do that is product launches.
Adam
Dan Thies
· 1 year ago
We can only hope that Mr. King never writes a romance novel. Or maybe he is... anyone seen a "Stephen Steele" novel on the rag rack?
By the way, Timothy, and thanks for your comments: most of the testimonials you see for a "new" product come from one of two places:
1) The marketer's imagination (I'm sure it happens) 2) Private openings before the real launch, which allow the product developer to get feedback, make adjustments, and collect a few testimonials.
I love it when someone stands up to the BIG BOYS! I get so sick of all the emails promoting the next greatest BullS**T product. They don't answer their emails. They hide behind a "Support Desk" that they Outsourced to some "Flunkies" that doesn't know anything about internet marketing.
They pay thousands of dollars to make their sales pages so good and enticing that your mouth waters when you read it. Then, when you get the actual product, you are extremely disappointed as it's more re-hashed garbage! I've fell for that trap several times. It just infuriates me!
I try to stay informed on what's going on the internet by subscribing to many different lists. I just counted the folders I created for each "internet marketer", and I just realized that I'm on 117 email lists. And that's just internet marketers! I'm also on another 25 network marketers list.
It's no wonder I can't get anything done. I'm too busy reading my emails. I really only trust a few of them, and should "Un-subscribe" to the all the "Guru's" who hide behind a wall of people.
I like people like Frank Kern, Huey Lee, Jimmy D. Brown, Dave and Aaron, Kathe Lucas, Lisa Preston, Matt Haslem, Michelle MacPhearson, Perry Lawrence, Scott Boulch, Todd Gross, and Keith Baxter... just to name a few. There are others that I may have over looked... sorry.
At least I didn't tell who I think are a "worthless piece of sh@t". We all know who they are They are the one's that you can't reach.
Anyway, that's enough bashing on my part. I'm too busy building my own business, and helping others to build theirs, to worry about all the stupid fracking products launches. (that for all you Battlestar Galactica fans)...
Sorry - didn't mean to say the Black Book is where the idea for SMARTS came from. Had that been the case it would have been much better.
There were a lot of "hackers" in the program.
Walt Goshert
· 1 year ago
WWSGD?
"You can’t fool all the people, not even most of the time. And people, once unfooled, talk about the experience." Seth Godin
Linda Lupowitz
· 1 year ago
I really cringed when I read your email, about unsubbing all the marketers who blast out these bonus-laden projectile launches...I must have had a glass of wine too many when I bought into the Stomper, knowing that I have all that information already and do not have the TIME to implement...let alone watch all those hours of video!!
I tried to get out of it, but I don't think I am getting a refund. One month is equal to more than EIGHT months of ASC (Authority Site Center) - a much better deal. ASC is a great value.
But I did what you suggested, Unsubbed from all except those that send me useful content - and already I am happier, with a less-cluttered inbox. I am on a low-fat guru-diet now.
I've read the black book. Some interesting ideas, but you didn't invent social marketing any more than Don Crowther did. But only one of you is claiming to have done so, and it's not Don.
I have no doubt that Don has learned a lot of things from a lot of people. But just because you had a product on the market, that doesn't mean other people can't think, come up with their own way of thinking, apply decades of marketing experience, test different ideas, and synthesize something new.
Synthesis is an idea you should explore. Google "Bloom's Taxonomy" and that'll get you started.
I can remember back in 2001 when I published a book on SEO, a few people who had published stuff before I did wanted to lay claim to SEO, as if nobody else could ever have an original idea on the subject.
I haven't bought your program, but I doubt that it includes as much in-depth instruction as SMARTS. If you think it's about linking, you're way off the mark. If you think it's all "stolen" from you, you're delusional.
Beyond that, I'll let your words speak for themselves.
Colin "Google" McDou
· 1 year ago
Cripes... Has anybody registered Rick Butts is my hero.com yet????
Rick, I am soooo looking forward to seeing you next week....
More posts to come regarding tons of responses here.
I must finish packing...
Flying out of Vancouver in the early hours of the morning...
Arrive in Chicago at about noonish EST. Anybody attending the System Seminar please come say hi to me :- )
Colin
Rick
· 1 year ago
Colin "Google McDougall (I love that name, buddy)
What kind of new friends might I make if I showed up at The System - no, wait JV Alert?
I'll bet a nickel I won't have to pay for a single cocktail or meal?
LOL
Rick
Rick
· 1 year ago
Dan Theiss:
My friend,
I really get that you are passionately involved in this discussion - and as long as you keep commenting - I'll keep approving them.
But, IMHBAO taking on Jack Humphrey on the subject of primacy for Social Marketing is not going to get you much credibility among my readers.
The majority of my readers are very knowledgeable in Social Marketing - and learned most of what works from Jack.
Someone DID invent Social Marketing - and from my seat at the big game, it was Jack Humphrey.
He is the Kleenex of Social Media and the undisputed authority on the subject.
IMHBAO In My Humble But Accurate Opinion Rick
Dan Thies
· 1 year ago
Rick, if you accept Jack's assertion that everything we teach is 'stolen' from him, that's up to you.
I am not questioning whether Jack is an expert or a pioneer, that's sort of obvious. But he apparently wants to be the only voice in the field, and that's not going to happen for him.
The bitterness with which he attacks a competitor is shocking, but again, if you admire those qualities, it's up to you.
Here is a blog post from August 30, 2006 about Jupiter Media's "social marketing" service, which they had announced the day before and had certainly spent some time planning.
Most of the world actually thinks of it as Social Media Optimization, which is a term coined by Rohit Bhargava, as far as I know... which also happened before ASC was born.
Jack Humphrey
· 1 year ago
"I haven't bought your program, but I doubt that it includes as much in-depth instruction as SMARTS."
You can doubt all you want. You haven't been inside. You DON'T know what you're talking about and I'm beginning to see that you don't know me at all.
"If you think it's about linking, you're way off the mark."
Good - you read the word linking and figure the training is about link building. I guess I need a big damn Emmy-winning video for you to understand anything about this topic.
"If you think it's all "stolen" from you, you're delusional."
Delusional is the man who thinks a great portion of the material a lot of gurus put out is original. They rip off ideas from all over the damn place.
I wouldn't have cared about SMARTS at all if it weren't POSITIONED as the first best finest damn social marketing training ever. They positioned it that way. They have to eat those words unless they expect all of us doing this long before them to just sit back and put up with all this "Almighty Savior" shit.
I'd have let it ride if it were positioned in any of 1000 different ways than the way it was. No, I'm sure nothing was "stolen" in the strictest sense. We all learn things and apply them and even make them into training sometimes.
Everyone is talking about stuff me and a few others were talking about when few people would listen (because they were doing all the Adsense crap trying to figure out why they weren't making anymore money).
Find me out there, ANYWHERE, claiming I invented social marketing. You won't. I'm not the guy you so desperately want to paint with that brush.
This is the only place I brought this up because I was tired of all the chest beating bullshit about something everyone was led to believe WAS invented by SMARTS people.
I didn't invent it, but neither the hell did they. Watch the videos again and see for yourself how they positioned all of it.
I don't have any more time for the this history lesson than a lauded Stomper Faculty Member should, so I'll sign off this one. My words here don't mean squat compared to my track record the last 10 years. (Google me before you reply to this or you'll keep embarrassing yourself.)
If you want to win this debate you're up against 10 years of impeccable credentials. I heard yours are pretty fine, or at least they were until I saw you getting into this mess.
Just remember, none of these people are pissed at ME. You won't find a single spec anywhere on the web containing the kind of venom spewing on this page about my products, services or reputation.
I've had 10 years to destroy my reputation and haven't managed to do it yet. Stomper is in danger of accomplishing the task in virtually no time at all.
I'm not the one on public trial here. Think about that before you tighten the noose even more by trying to act like somehow everyone else is a pile of scroungy infidels and that your position here is the solid one.
Colin "Google" McDou
· 1 year ago
Wooohooo... Ain't this one of the best conversations we have had in a long time about internet marketing!!!!
Dan, have I publicly stated that it was an absolute pleasure to speak with you on the phone yesterday!
Let's talk again soon...
OK, I am procrastinating on last minute travel busy stuff :- )
Colin
Dan Thies
· 1 year ago
Jack, in your own words: "If you steal something that was stolen from someone else, is it still a crime?"
Nothing was stolen from you, Jack. I don't need to win a debate about that, Jack, because it's the truth.
You note that I haven't been inside ASC, and it's true. It also appears that you haven't been through the SMARTS course.
I think if we did swap logins, we'd both find that the other program is valuable, and that we have different takes on the best way to approach this stuff. We'd probably both learn something.
Maybe we won't agree on which of us provides the "best" training, but I have no doubt that ASC is providing excellent value.
No matter how valuable that program is, you're limited to 500 people according to your sales letter. That leaves a lot of room for someone to teach everyone else. Well, we've taught a couple thousand people, and we're not done.
It also looks like you're selling websites there, which is not really our thing, and I'm sure you'll continue to find plenty of customers as long as you keep creating raving fans.
The Going Natural 2 videos are still online, BTW. While they present social media marketing as an opportunity that very few people are aware of, and even fewer do well*, I don't remember anyone claiming that nobody was doing it.
* That's still true IMO, especially outside of the internet-marketing-seminar circuit. Most business owners haven't a clue.
Carol Ann Wiley
· 1 year ago
Rick, Love you, but....
Although I agree with you about the overkill with emails about the newest and "greatest" product launch; I must defend some of the people who did it. For one: Howie Schwartz. He just recently joined the faculty of Stomper Net and therefore was promoting it.
As I think you indicated; Howie Schwartz is someone you subscribe to. I do too!
I will admit product launches have gotten out of control; but they work for the big guys; I just need to find out how to work them for the little guys.
PS: I'm also hoping I'll be 1 of the 3 peeps people continue subscribing to - (AKA - you! LOL) as I employ the same principles u & I seem to agree on: entertain, educate & capitivate with integrity & REAL business tips & THEN you'll attract clients who are TRUE raving fans - instead of tricking peeps w/ a 30 min commercial by tuning in to their ustream channel, etc.
wave
· 1 year ago
Today I unsubscribed from 3 of the 'guru' lists that I was on soley because of Stompernet emails. It just became too much and the technique got real old real quick.
Email 1: "We're open!" Email 2: "The Server Crashed!! OMG!" Email 3: "Ok we're back up and there are only 24 spots left!" Email 4: "We're closed!!! Sold Out!" Email 5: [ Explanation about overwhelming traffic and how it broke the servers ] Email 6: [The 'Honesty Email'] "Ok just to show you how honest we are we're going to admit that 94 people have quit Stompernet and these spots are NOW AVAILABLE!" Email 7: "17 of Our New Servers Crashed!" Email 8: "All spots are taken" Email 9: "Our top Stomper just made $46,394 in the first 4 days alone, and he's blind!!" Email 10: "Act fast there are 15 spots available"
Ad infinitum.
Bleh, it's all B.S. and Hexatrack is running the same launch model... LAME.
Dan Thies
· 1 year ago
Carol, the process works for just about anything.
Where it gets crazy, and why people talk about it like we are here, is when a launch goes past critical mass to the point where some people feel like they're getting beaten over the head.
If you leave affiliates out of the picture, and just spend a little time getting feedback, getting people engaged, and building anticipation, you can make a big difference in your results.
I know online retailers who have used a launch type process with their existing customers before they added a new line of products, instead of just adding them to the store, and the gains were measurable as well as long lasting.
Rick
· 1 year ago
Carol - as I've said a couple of times above - I totally support people mailing for their own product, and that included faculty of SN. And I love Howie Schwartz.
I dont' disLIKE anyone in IM - except for 2 guys who will never get any ink on this fine blog!
RIDDLE: Figure this one out and I'll mail you a copy of my hardcover book...
If you take both of their first names - you have the full name of the brother of the object of the song that contains the line "that dirty little coward who shot Mr. Howard"
Hmmmm
Rick
· 1 year ago
Dan - brother - God love ya - but you must be getting a BUTT-LOAD of Stompernet Stock for carrying all this water for the boys.
I wish you worked for me!
8-)
Rick
MariSmith
· 1 year ago
OMG, Rick you are my hero! Thank you for daring to write this brilliant blog post that has been brewing under the surface for some time.
I absolutely applaud anyone in business for themselves out there providing honest business solutions and creating real results for their clients.
...and, I have a theory about marketers. There are two types: numbers-based and heart-based.
The numbers guys pound their lists to a pulp wringing every dollar they can out of it; it's all about the conversions and list size and dollars (yeah, of course money is important - without profits, you have a hobby not a business); and once their targets get out their credit card and make a purchase, they're left in the dust ...'til the next offer.
The heart peeps, on the other hand, are genuinely concerned for their prospects and clients; they relate to their target market and networks as real people with real needs; they *want* to help create solid, measurable results... and they have an ongoing developmental path for their clients.
To each his own... but, really, the buyer needs to educate him/herself 'cuz the marketers are probably not too likely to change. No disrespect to Jack & his team - clearly there's a market for what they offer. It just has never resonated with my style... nor with those who've shared with me they moved on from the program.
Rick, I absolutely love your suggestion of hand-picking 2-3 good people to follow who match your style. Brilliant.
I actually just subscribed to the optin on your website http://tribalseduction.com/blog/ - so now you know what sort of pressure you are under to blow me away with great and clever stuff!
As a fellow Ustream.TV show boy - I look forward to getting to know ya.
I'm REALLY trying to get this post up on DIGG - if I Beg? Bonus? Link?
Rick kindly put up my response to this in his very own blog post
Exhibit B
ummm Jack claiming to be the first at anything in the wired world is a bit dangerous - Dude we were teaching that stuff inside the immediate edge in January of 2007 (perhaps more importantly making a boat load of money with it through 2006).
And I bet someone somewhere was teaching it before that!
Your free report in March had the impact it deserved. It was really excellent work.
So the point is Don Crowther copied from ME!!!!!
(yes Rick, Jack and Don - I'm kidding)
You know what the difference between Authority Black Book, Immediate Edge and SMARTS is...
EXHIBIT C
A BIG OL PRODUCT LAUNCH!!!
The elephant in the room in this whole thing is that in this most jaded (and now apparently bitchy) world of Marketers marketing to marketers....
PRODUCT LAUNCHES WORK BRILLIANTLY
If you use a product launch on your dodgy, crappy product - A POX ON YOUR HOUSE
I think SMARTS was brilliant and the thing that was brilliant was it bought an Academic step by step approach to something that was taught in scatter gun style (Big finger pointing at me!)
I'm really sorry to open a big old can of REALITY into this discussion but it terrifies me that you all read Ricks stuff to become better...
MARKETERS.
And that instead of filing all of this free education flowing into your mailbox - you RAGE against it.
I just don't get it -if your on a list and your not getting value UNSUBSCRIBE
(I agree with Rick about unsubscribes - just not his throwing the entire Grade 1 class of Beechworth Primary School out with the bathwater about unsubing because someone promoted Stompernet)
To the commenter above - if they don't take you off the list you can open up a can of FTC/Canspam whup ass on them and i'll be the first one there cheering you on.
Every mail program (on the mac it's super simple) has a very easy to use rule system that will automatically sort mail for you. I could not live with out that functionality.
But as people who have put their hand up and OPTED-IN to receive an email from someone to learn about marketing, don't you think the real issue is taking back control of your mail?
I mean, apart from the true spam stuff (Great News - I won one million dollars this morning..i'm so psyched!) all Internet Marketing mail you receive is because, well...
You asked for it.
These big launches work because the people behind them put in the airmiles, the phone minutes and the blood sweat and tears of building a list and a bunch of joint ventures.
You really want to use your Rage against the system...study the system very closely and then beat it at it's own game.
Look at www.thirtydaychallenge.com (Pre-season starts this Sunday June 1 BTW) I am all about community!!!
I love community - I am all for community but i am not blinded by RAGE in the system. For all the heat in this thread - Fact -
Product Launches Work.
Not only Do they Work, They Work WELL,
no - they work
Brilliantly
My dream is that instead of people raging against the system - they take what they learn and use it to market really superb products in all sorts of niches. Where people love the excitement and drama of a launch (not that they would call it that). Make a bunch of money and then fly to one of Rick Butts gigs and heckle him.
Final Word - Jeff Walker is truly one of the good guys, he would be the first to recoil in horror if a shitty product was launched using his process.
Dan Thies is also one of the good guys and to suggest that he is somehow 'put up to this" is just plain wrong - Dan, is very much - his own man and I'm pretty sure that he has a second brain where one of his kidneys should be...
More Of The Final Word - Think back to our first product launch in this space - John Reese and Traffic Secrets. People loved that - it was exciting and John spent TWO YEARS going to every net conference to build relationships and help out people where ever he could. He Worked Hard and got the result.
Totally Final Word Really. Traffic Secrets 2 is going to be LAUNCHED very shortly. John will do a launch and it will be successful. The bits i've seen of what he is doing are spectacular.
Are you going to take the opportunity to learn from that launch - or just take pot-shots? Personally, I'll be setting up my Traffic Secrets II folder in MAIL and raging against the system by tracking every single move.
Harris Fellman
· 1 year ago
I find it ironic that in a post about information overload -- the newest, HUGE TIME WASTER gets brought up to pull your attention into 27,000 directions all at the same time.
TWITTER!
The key to succeeding is to FOCUS and ya can't spell TIME WASTER without most of the letters in TWITTER.
Anyway - personally, I've been sick of Stomper since they launched-- but for different reasons. It had this feel of 'conglomerating the industry' -- or I guess bulldozing it. You will be assimilated and all that.
OH NO!! THEY GOT HOWIE!!! Heh heh.
As for Product Launches -- ohhh ... I dunno. I go back and forth. I've won some, I've lost some. (My own, my clients, etc.)
This notion that they don't work for the little guy is absolute baloney though -- the little guy most likely won't do a seven figure launch coming out of the gate (or even a six figure for that matter).
But as someone who promotes a*lot* of other people's products, I've noticed that launched products typically do convert better. The trouble is - there's so many launches - it's tough to even promote anything *but* a launched product (Hell, Rick just promoted IM Cure inside of his anti-stomper message - don't let that bald Butt fool ya.)
Recent launches have also gotten more sophisticated ... taking up to 4 weeks or more of PRE LAUNCH time. That's 4 weeks of GREAT FREE CONTENT if it's from someone like Eben Pagan or Jeff Walker.
I have to be honest - I didn't read every comment - but the real problem isn't "Product Launches" - it's "Product Launches into the Internet Marketing space selling products on how to sell products".
And if you've been around a while - you've seen a bunch of launches in this market.
Launches work very well in other niches too. That's what's so great about Jeff Walker's case studies - they prove that.
So, I dunno - -as someone deep into all this - I can tell ya that launches KEEP working. I said this at my recent Launch Master's Retreat ...
"3 Million seems to be the new '7 figure launch'"
This past quarter we saw a number of $3million launches.
It seems like just yesterday that ppl were wowed by a measly million. ;-)
I'm starting to ramble.
Peace out ya'll,
Harris
PS I'm working on the first $10 million launch for 2010. (Hmmm - the spawn of an idea.) And I also own anti-launch.com -- so, Rick, if you've got the cajones to really go 'ANTI LAUNCH' - let's talk.
Fair enough everyone. I need disclaimers or at least to read my stuff more than twice.
I can see where the only thing anyone got out of my original was that I was some egotistical dumbass claiming first dibs on social marketing.
Wasn't my intent and everyone who really knows me knows I'm not that guy at all.
I honestly don't care anymore and can't remember the last time I let myself get baited like this.
All I was really replying to was one sentence in Dan's reply and on it went.
I feel better now. Not that I felt that bad before considering I have my own very loving, devoted posse and quite the perfect life. Only diff here is like Ed said, the big multi million dollar launch.
If we could all agree that the millions of dollars are the MAIN reason for doing any of it, then I'd be happy.
Believe it or not, I honestly like what I do and helping people enough that I choose not to make $18 million in one day at the expense of others.
You see, I can easily round up the same list of characters and do it too. One thing the gurus can't resist is a hot, pure commodity to profit from, and baby, I got game! There were talks very recently about turning me into the next Internet Idol with people you all know and "love."
Not gonna happen. I opted out of the mega-million dollar day. It doesn't matter to me if people don't believe that.
People who know me know I'm not crazy. So search for the real reason I wouldn't do it and you have ANOTHER way of looking at internet marketing instead of what is now almost considered the ONLY way judging by all the launches.
Hell we all knew more were coming. Walker put out a killer course and now we can count on way more than just Stomper doing it.
And there WERE big launches well before Walker spilled the beans. And conversations just like this one.
10 years of this same exact argument and I still haven't learned to keep my mouth shut and just cash the damn checks.
CoachDeb
· 1 year ago
WOW! I am SO humbled & honored that while you're recommending to UNsubscribe to other people's lists that you actually just SUBSCRIBED to mine - annnnd posted that confession right here! How cool is THAT?!
Who's my buddy? RICK BUTTS is my buddy - fer sure!
Seriously dude - TX 4 the tips & the DM's on Twitter I have SO enjoyed our conversations & your blog posts here.
Funny thing is - I subscribed to your blog even before you posted that you just subscribed to mine!
Now THAT's integrity & adding REAL value for subscribers working right before our very eyes - via Twitter
Digg this post? u betcha! @CoachDeb (Aka Tribal Seducer -- NOT molestor!)
Rick
· 1 year ago
Sharon,
Frank James it is!
Twitter me your snail mail address - or put it here and we'll all send ya cards and checks in the mail?
Clever girl!
Rick
Jack Humphrey
· 1 year ago
Anyway Rick - great job on the linkbait dude!
If I wasn't so embarrassed I got sucked into one of the oldest tricks in the book I'd link to you too! :)
Sharon Bray-McPherson
· 1 year ago
With all do respect Mr. Fellman, within hours of opening my Twitter account last week I received 26 new subscribers to my newsletter, all from Twitter. And since that time I have had several purchases of my products by people who found me through Twitter.
Holy cow, dude, you have set off a veritable firestorm here! I hear the plaintive plea of Rodney King echoing through the riots "Can we all get along?"
The discussion is fantastic, but beyond all the Stomper & PLF debate, the main take away I got from you is: stay focused - don't get distracted by the latest shiney thing, and stay organized - don't get cluttered by emails & products that you don't have a specific purpose for.
BTW, Jesse James brother was Frank. Where's my book?
DaveWebb
· 1 year ago
Wow, lotsa peeps still commenting here while I wrote my post. Guess that means I just got shot down dead like Jesse on the book - Sharon - ugh! ya' got me!
Rick
· 1 year ago
Sharon Bray-McPherson 5 N. Washington St. Beverly Hills, FL 34465
The WINNER of the free copy of the Big Butts of Life Blue Ribbon Edition!
Now that we have her address - I recommend that everyone start mailing her a letter or a postcard with your Twitter ID on it so that she can add you to Twitter - and you can start following one of the bright stars in the Internet marketing real world. And a history buff too!
"And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love, you make..." The Beatles
Caro :-)
· 1 year ago
WOW!
If you were to put into one sentence what this thread of comments is about, what would that be?
As it seems to have moved way off the original topic.
And become an avenue to vent, finger point and cast aspersions.
Back to what I perceive the original post to be about.
"Unsubscribing From Whoever Emailed You Stompernet"
Which I believe was wanting to make the point ???
That the tactics 'big' IMers are using lack integrity? Or our outdated? So show your displeasure by unsubscribing?
I apologize if I am off track.
I would like to offer my opinion.
Oh I'm a 'no-body' in IM. I am a learner, I guess you could say I am now a 'young adult' as far as experience.
And I am full time, earning a good income to support myself. So definitely more than $500 a month (plus I like a certain lifestyle lol).
I would say honestly I am a follower as opposed to a pioneer in this industry - I don't aspire to be a guru, I do love helping and teaching others how to make work what I have (and it's what I've learned off others).
I have chosen who I am a student of - when I started I thought I had to know it all in 5 minutes, off ALL the 'guru's' (where did that phrase come from?!), and then I picked the people who I like both personally and professionally (Ed Dale, Dan Raine and Frank Kern in his Ultra Underachiever days).
Plus I have met and made some amazing friends in this industry. AMAZING!
I am sure I am part of a bigger segment who would have a similar profile.
So my opinion...
I saw all of the emails flood in for Stompernet from their affiliates, and them themselves.
I ignored most of them, deleted them - without any emotion or engagement.
So yes that is telling. They're not cutting through. The majority of them. I have 'discerned' before I hit delete, that they are not teaching me anything for my own marketing.
And then an occasional email caught my (tired) eye. Something about it stood out. Something I wanted to register for myself as an IMer with my own niches.
Though not enough for me to want to join Stompernet: just because I'm clear on where my focus is right now, not because it lacks anything, as I wasn't ever going to look deeply into it for the former reason, so I can't intelligently comment on Stompernet's value.
So what does that mean to me?
As that is what it is really about - what it means to each of us as Internet Marketers - whatever level we operate at.
Well for me, yes I register that I am saturated with emails.
Funnily - I've also been thinking my main niches might be going through the same thing - as I am overdue updating them. (it is on the list!)
My approach seems to still be working, as my conversion rates etc are still attractive.
But hey, if I was them...same old, same old...there's going to be a time soon where it wont work so well (Sigmoid Curve!)...so laziness could cost me!
And I guess I feel that way for those bigger Internet Marketers. If what they are doing works for them - why would they change?
Maybe simply because like myself, even though they are 'working', I am feeling I am not giving to my niche community in alignment with how I like to operate.
Or maybe there's the risk of the Sigmoid Curve for them too (well at least I'm not quoting Astrology lol ;-) )
But I am not going to tell them they have to - that's a personal choice.
Or if it's not working - they'll know that, and I am sure they'll do something about it. They didn't get to where they are without acumen in this field. And if they are 'missing the new 8 ball' - well that will just be part of their own professional journey.
We're all on one.
Hmmmm, I guess I wonder, and it's most probably a reflection (indictment) on my personality, why so many are so angry about this? (outside of those feeling they need to defend themselves).
I am aware that 'pushing' and public opinion is often instrumental to change. Is this what the original post and comments are about?
Is it really about getting a message out to the 'big guns' that it's time to change? To refresh?
If so...what with?
And if so - can we convey that message without anger and mudslinging?
As I find it so much easier to hear and learn from when it is just about the content, without the emotion.
I also feel a Gandhi quote coming on: "Be the Change Your Want To See In The World"
If we don't like what's happening - why not change the domain we have direct control over - our marketing efforts - rather than try to get other's to change?
Generally that is how effective change happens - people see what someone is doing, see it works, and then adopt that for themselves.
OK - you might think I'm off to light some incense and bow to Ganesh..but I'm actually off for a glass of well aged Chardonnay...
Caro :-)
PS: If you sign up to my IM list - I am such a slacker with it! Sorry - I get caught up with actually running my businesses (and procrastinating! :o).
MariSmith
· 1 year ago
@Harris - indeed, with all due respect to you (I have some of your products & love 'em), any IMer who says Twitter is the biggest waste of time clearly doesn't get the power of Twitter... yet! I hope you get Twitterized soon! ;)
@Jack - I don't really know you except for what I've seen on the 'net (& I'm a member of your FTR ning community, tho not very active), I think you're digging a deeper hole for yourself with soundbites like this, "If we could all agree that the millions of dollars are the MAIN reason for doing any of it, then I'd be happy." Are you serious?? In my world, money is the BYPRODUCT of the VALUE you add to people's lives and the results you help create. Maybe I misread ya!
CARO: the point was about encouraging my Internet marketing peers to cut way back on the "opportunity seeking" and do exactly what you have done by focusing. It's not so easy to those of us who used to see these emails as news - now they are pitches.
Mari: Jack is aces. I think he was reacting to a situation that we will never really know the full story about - and he's too much of a good man to tell it.
My love to you all for your tremendous support of this discussion - I'm sorry the approval thing is on for the blog - and I just have to go watch a sweet romantic movie on DVD "Atonement" and just hug my single self...
Good night you Princes of Maine, you Kings of New England!
(and enjoy the new video I put on the home page!)
Sharon Bray-McPherson
· 1 year ago
Aw shucks Rick, now you've went and made me blush.
And you've just climbed past Telly Savalas and Yul Brynner on my list of sexy guys with no hair.
It has been interesting reading all that is going on here. Thanks for the post.
I actually enjoy the launch process. If you don't like all the emails it is easy to unsubscribe. As I have my own domain and control over email addresses on that domain I created a special address that I use to subscribe to the launch stuff.
I then just read if I have some time. As the launch formula is all about providing great value in the pre-launch if you just watch the videos people make available for free there is a lot of great information you can learn from.
The latest stuff I have seen comes from Eben's launch. I have no plans to buy his stuff no matter how appealing his launch is (my wife makes sure of that) but you get great content for free.
It is also a great way to analyse how the guru's do things. You can choose to model what they do or come up with something altogether different.
The power is with the individual.
I have to admit I was once a Stompernet member. I like many felt overwhelmed with content and dropped my membership. They did try hard to get people earning enough in a month to cover the membership cost.
Do you say they only had their pockets to think about or were they genuine in trying to help people make a go of it? Of course getting the members to earn enough to cover fees and have them stay will keep the profits going at Stompernet.
The moral of all this is that launches can be used to increase your knowledge of the industry.
I know that the launch formula does not teach people to go and sell crap. Of course that does happen but it does not mean that the launch method is to blame.
I have serious misgiving about being on the receiving end of the whole product launch method thing, like why would they need to try and get a massive oversell in the first few hours. If I had twenty tomatoes to sell at $100 each and a queue of 50 people already wanting to buy I wouldn't be putting all my effort into trying to get more people to join the end of that queue, which is what the emails claim to be doing.
But some of the free tips going out with the launch videos are definitely worth taking notice of, so I haven't unsubscribed from the main list yet.
Listening to the phone call linked to on this post however was a waste of my time. It's just like two people very slowly and repetitively talking about the bleeding obvious, on a poor quality line with irritating voices. If you wrote down carefully what they have to say it would fill at most three short paragraphs, but takes almost hour to grind through, wincing.
Jason Moffatt
· 1 year ago
Holy crap, who's got the damn popcorn?
How about we just have a battle royal cage match after drinking a couple cases of domestic brew?
I wish more blogs and forums would fight like this.
This stuff is my favorite!
Because in the end, it just sells more stuff for all sides involved.
Now who wants a knuckle sandwich from off the top rope?
Everyone has their strategies and tactics. Everyone has their own preferences. Hopefully everyone is doing what works for them. Variety gives us all choices.
The products launches are used because that particular strategy works. When people stop responding I am sure the fittest will evolve and find a new strategy to survive.
The barrage of emails can get very annoying but that is why delete functions were invented. Tiny red ants have invaded my house like at NASA but life goes on. 90% of the time the ones who send the most during launch are quiet.
I did get several emails from an affiliate and at least part time cadre saying to clear cookies. I think the other affiliates should be more annoyed than me.
Maybe a new tactic is send a single email about an anticipated new product and sit and wait for a hungry crowd to send email after email to the launcher asking for more information or inquiring how to get the new product.
Harvard doesn't have to launch their new school year opening. The student candidates go to them trying to get in. Harvard and other prestigious universities do try to recruit the brightest stars in certain fiels.
I am sure if a few people ended up with a warehouse full of unsold products the current product launch strategies would change drastically.
There are pros and cons for both sides here. There is talent, experience and wisdom on both sides and as for me I know I can learn from both.
Both strategies can be effective, whether it's the blitzkrieg shock and awe product launch or the win the hearts and minds of the locals psychological operations of social networking.
Product launches can be annoying and irritating to some people but social networking can cause some people to feel left out or ignored. One can be overkill and one can be underkill.
Are you ready to RUMBLE?
Tonight, Live From Rick Butts Arena, the Kick Butt Marketing Mania Mayhem. ProductLaunch vs SocialMarketing, only one will walk out of the ring. Will ProductLaunch get un-subscribed or will SocialMarketing get blocked, ignored or deleted?
That's my theory.
Helene Kvist
· 1 year ago
The cynicism of the Stompernet Launch is symptomatic of all these mega guru launches. They all subscribe to the "customers are idiots" theory.
I was a charter member of Stompernet and I made my decision to buy as soon as I heard about it, previous to the launch. The reason was I had already bought Stomping The Search Engines and had benefitted from the high quality of the content in that little course. To me, Brad and Andy had a solid gold reputation, their new program didn't need any selling.
But what followed in the launch sequence I found so tedious and obnoxious I almost didn't buy. The "don't reveal too much" video case studies. The confabulated "fight" between Sydney Johnston and the Rich Jerk. I mean, come on, surely they didn't think I was "that" gullible.
The relationship Brad and Andy had with their STSE customers was one of intelligence, high trust, and integrity. You just felt a lot smarter every time you listened to them, and it seemed like they shared everything with you.
Now, with Stompernet, for some reason you were assumed to be a moron, the kind of consumer who would tune in for Jerry Springer every day. Why else would we be offered G'ma vs RJ? And upon joining, mass confusion, info overload. Why is it again I'm paying $770 a month?
There obviously wasn't much attention devoted to the customer experience once the money had been paid.
I was tempted again with the Smarts launch recently, but it was just too much information being blasted out again. Once bitten, twice shy.
I've had the same basic experience with the other mega gurus that have launched over the last 18 months. The end result? No trust. SN et al demonstrate by their actions they are more concerned with the big payday than they are with providing real value for their customers.
I'm sure the indivdual gurus themselves would disagree, but that's my experience. I'm unconcerned with what Stompernet, or Jeff Johnson, or Mike Filsaime, or anyone says in their emails. The bottom line is, I don't trust them anymore.
Until I can call them on the phone for help, the way I can with Michael Campbell, or Colin McDougal, they don't matter. There's no value in their offer anymore.
Anyway, customers are not morons, and if Brad and Andy would resume sharing their honesty and intelligence and cease "marketing", Stompernet might save itself.
Best, Helene Kvist
Lasse Rouhiainen
· 1 year ago
First of all thanks Rick for this post!
This really sparked some great debate.
But from “European point of view” this is nothing new.
Internet Marketing should be based on “common sense and human nature”, not superlatives and hype.
In fact, few weeks ago I was talking in a Internet Marketing seminar and asked entrepreneurs all over Europe, what they don’t like in Internet Marketing ?
We came out in a list of more than 20 things people hate in IM.
Then we took the opposite of those things and came out with a list of essential things for Internet Marketing in 2008:
(And this is something I have been talking long time already)
1. You need to give valuable stuff to your target market 2. You need to build relationship with your target market 3. You need to tell your story to your target market 4. You need to communicate with integrity and honesty with you target market
I think Frank Kern is a good example of internet marketing guru who is doing these things, and that is probably why he has such a big following.
(plus, he is doing many other great things)
This is like in all business and communications, if you use common sense and human nature you will get results.
I also admire a lot Jeff Walker and his product launch formula. It’s one of the best product ever done.
I’m doing a launch now (in non english, non IM niche) and sending people videos where I explain what’s coming.
This way there are less misunderstandings and everyone is happy, plus it makes sense because its something you would do in offline business. (showing your face, and telling people what you got)
Lasse Rouhiainen Spain
Ps. It’s interesting to see the social media discussion here. I really enjoy Howie Schwartz, Ed Dale and Jack Humphrey (with no specific order) and I’m following all of them.
Pps. @Marismith great point that many marketer’s think Twitter is waste of time. I think its mostly because its not a marketing tool, but relationship building and communication tool.
So it takes time to understand its true potential if you are only focusing on marketing.
Jan
· 1 year ago
It's a sad sea of sharks. I also include anyone who uses the phrase "painless drop in the bucket" or "no brainer".
Now does anyone have the balls to create a list or poll of who's hot and who's a not??
Jan Silently making my wave
Joe Richey
· 1 year ago
Love this blog post!... I am sick as well as the good ol boys network continue to hammer ya with copy and paste emails of product launches.... The one that got passed around yesterday was Russells affiliate evolution I must have gotten the same sales pitch 23 times? Who will be thxt next frisbee who gets tossed player to player? HMM
Ryan Healy
· 1 year ago
Ed Dale just won the award for best comment yet. :-)
I think his comment shows the most balanced perspective.
On a side note, if you are a marketer, you face ethical decisions every day.
Do you sell this product or that product?
Do you "churn 'em and burn 'em" or do you nurture them and develop relationships? (Both philosophies are alive and well.)
And, with regard to Product Launches and other marketing tactics...
Do the ends justify the means?
These are all questions you have to answer for yourself and your business.
Like Ed says: If you're getting opt-in email, you asked for it.
I linked to this post from my blog... not because of the controversy... but because the core message is important.
That is, unsubscribe from "noise" so you can focus and actually get things done.
You wrote this link bait post to get traffic to Scott's book, period. You didn't say that is what this post was for but, but that is what it is for.
At least, when Stomper does a launch they don't do it under the guise of something else. They flat out tell you they are going to give you some great content and then try to sell you something. (Rick, what great content did you personally provide on this webpage? Honestly.)
As a former member of StomperNet, I have my own issues with them, but how they sell their product is not one of them.
I think they did make some mistakes with this launch. But I don't fault them for pushing the limits to find where the mistakes are. That is a part of business.
And I don't fault the affiliates either. If I am an affiliate, how am I to know that in addition to my list, Rick, you are subscribed to 60 other internet marketing lists? I can't control what comes into your inbox!! That is your job. If you are getting to many emails than unsubscribe - but don't have any negative feelings toward the affiliate.
Bart
p.s. I intentionally did not put a url link in this post.
Adam T
· 1 year ago
I'm not sure how all autoresponders work, but I think with some if you unsubscribe, you are unsubscribed from just that campaign and possibly subscribed to other campaigns.
For example you may be signed up for multiple lists for the same internet marketer. I don't think it's the case that they are refusing to unsubscribe you or that the process is not working.
I often get 2 or 3 of the same messages from the same marketer because I am on multiple lists of theirs. I may be on their subscriber list for a certain product, on a subscriber list for a different service, etc...
So before you start filing complaints and accusing everyone of Spamming you, make absolute sure that you did not signup for multiple lists from the same marketer.
Adam
Lorraine Grula
· 1 year ago
This thread is becoming distracting!
But it sure has been fun!
Of COURSE product launches "work" even if they are not fun to behold. The problem is putting short term success ahead of long term success in the way a launch is managed.
Being the cynical old gal I am, I will vote that the buying public often has either short term memory loss or they never can see thru the hype in the first place. Otherwise, how can you explain the fact that for the past 50 years they have been selling weight loss products that stand no chance of working? "It's quick, easy, no exercising and you can eat all the greasy double cheeseburgers ya want...only $19.95!"
Tell people WHAT they want to hear, regardless of reality, and a large number of them will buy. See how much I learned for all those eons working in TV?
It was a very interesting read. I haven't read the cure, but I haven't read or heard most of things I sell. I use StomperNet and all the other's for building a swipe file. I must say that their information has given me a great deal of useful ideas and concepts which have resulted me in getting better search engine results. I also have become better at the trade of marketing. Everyone will have critics. Sometimes you can tell how effective you are by the amount of Critics you have.
linda m lopeke
· 1 year ago
This is one of the most enjoyable conversations I've ever come across online. Thanks for starting it Rick.
I've followed the development and growth of this industry for well over 10 years now tracking the trends, attitudes, and marketing tactics of a great many players (of all sizes and descriptions, including virtually all of the "names" mentioned in the conversational thread). There have been very few who have distinguished themselves as good role models identified in the exercise.
As many your posters have witnessed and experienced, financial success is not an indicator of professionalism, maturity, excellence or value. All to often it is the result of exploitation, greed and misrepresentation. In the long term, that's just not good business, nor is it good business strategy.
There's a reason we have the sayings "everything old is new again" and "everything new has already been invented".
Sure, it may take a bit longer to establish a financially viable and sustainable business when you're a heart- and principle-based leader (to Mari's point); however, chasing dollars and holding a scarcity mindset automatically limit what a business owner (any business owner) can achieve.
Those who make the focus of their entrepreneurial endeavours professional excellence, serve as models of integrity, and practice humility, differentiate themselves from all competition. No sturm and drang or mud-slinging required.
They are well rewarded for this, beyond what can even be imagined and in ways not always summarized on the corporate balance sheet.
At the end of the day though, each must choose his or her own path and should expect to be treated accordingly. Call me naive if you will, but I believe those who have the strongest sense of self, ethics, and the purest hearts and intentions will prevail.
However, do you personallly have time to read, review, use, and test each and every single product you promote?
Or do you merely say "My products are what you really need"?
Stomper.net's a good product, I have an older version and these guys are known for the good information on traffic generation and SEO. Therefore, when people that are known for something, and known as Experts in that area, then they should be listened to and trusted.
In principle I agree that other marketers hop on bandwagons, but the reality is that those JV partners who made a lot of sales were lined up before the launch, and those who made a few sales came on board after, probably trying to offset their costs for the product, IF they bought it.
Look, I've done the unsubscribe thing, too, and I'm not on many lists anymore and it helps my focus tremendously, but you cannot apply tactics from every single product you've ever read and promote it in a timely manner, now can you?
THIS is where relationships come into play! If in the past someone had a good product that you DID review, then the trust and relationship is there and you can promote it with integrity...
GURU ENVY is for those frustrated marketers who haven't made a dime from their efforts. Unsubscribing can be a good thing for them since they'll focus on their business instead of reading emails constantly.
Although I agree with much of what you wrote here, product launches DO work, because it IS MassMind Control, how else is buzz created? Not by one person mailing out to his own lists with no JV partners lined up, that's for sure.
Product launches are GOOD marketing, and most of the JV partners have reviewed the product or trust the product owners enough to safely promote it.
You can say you're in this biz merely to help people but everyone has something to sell, everyone is looking for the fruits of their labors, and everyone hopes to achieve this by promoting good products.
BTW, I didn't promote this nor was I invited to, but the point here is that guru envy is why people unsubscribe. My last 6 emails to my list were nothing but pure content, but money is made by selling stuff.
Don't knock it!
You're right about how much content is placed in between promotional emails, but you can't blame a marketer for mailing out for a good product. People are looking for advice and good products, or just a reason to unsubscribe.
Thanks,
Dan
P.S. I see your blog is well monetized, should I not subscribe to your blog because you're trying to sell stuff on each and every blog post?
Of course not, because content laced with promotions is how its done, so good job there..
Bill Webb
· 1 year ago
The mock outrage in the tone of your post sure has pulled in the big guns to make their comments!
Ed is correct. Each of us signed up to every single list we're on. None of us is prevented from clicking "unsubscribe."
Here's how I handle it:
All of my list email gets tagged with "list" within Gmail and archived to remove it from the inbox. Periodically, I will look at the items tagged, "list," then do a search for a specific "from" name, deciding after looking at the bulk of his emails whether I will change the filter to tag them "swipe," "instruction," or both. If there is no value to the list, I unsubscribe/delete.
By handling it this way, I no doubt miss out on some time-sensitive mega launches (yeah, right), but it helps me fight information overload while still allowing me to use the resources that have been offered.
Naturally, I have no real quarrel with you. Your post certainly has raised some food for thought. However, some of the comments sent a cold shiver down my back:
"marketing is inherently biased, skewed information designed to make you feel positive about the product."
"Instead, let's watch for Dime Sales from the likes of Robert Plank and George Plus." "Put a mark in the Signal column for each email with useful info and no sales links."
Dime sales? So if I spend time building case studies, profiles, useful content, you want me to turn around and give it to you for a dime? I'm going to need a whole mess of dimes to make my landlord happy!
Emails with no sales links? I find it slightly worrisome that marketers are getting upset when other marketers try to sell them things. This ain't charity.
"CONTENT, a word through around too liberally in internet marketing imho..."
I'm primarily a writer that discovered I could provide amazing content for people, bring value, and get paid for that value. I don't run mega-launches, or pester a bunch of JVs. In fact, I still even write honest to God letters and mail 'em snail-style. Talk about wanting a personal connection!
Guys, I understand the *problem*, but the people we're talking about in this thread have expenses and dreams just like any of us. I'm not one to say that an email with sales links is a bad one, or isn't considered "signal" -- my swipe file is filled to the brim with great email that had a link in it. I don't want to name more names and earn pitchforks at the same time. Oh wait, I'll name just one, the lady that convinced an itty bitty writer from Missouri to "rise above" the negativity surrounding marketing and go for it:
Alexis Dawes.
Marketing is without content? I've personally talked to Ms. Dawes, read her books -- nearly everyone she's put out, and to quote my man Andre 3000, "Value is what I'm talkin' 'bout!" She delivers, and I could probably name a couple other marketers I feel the same way about.
As for the "marking emails as spam" ... wow. If my list expects me to spend hours collecting information, testing and sharing experience without me even leaving a link to get paid ...well, I might catch flames about this (and yes, I left my *real marketer name* in this post - nice to meet y'all! ;D) but this is not charity. This is Marketing Club.
Just a wandering nichelady that stumbled across this post from Ed Dale on twitter. Stay paid, folks. If your beef is with the Stomper folks, build a resource that delivers the value you want to see.
If your beef is with marketers that "sell too much" (*giggle*), build a list that delivers the relationship you want to have.
But you know, as I'm often fond of saying, it's really not about getting paid. It's about staying paid. Seriously -- and that's why I think the post launch formula has to be refined so that you can "stay paid" without hacking off half the community. But I digress. I'm just a wanderer on a roll. ;)
Isabella Murphy
Isabella "Nichelady" Murphy
· 1 year ago
Rick,
Naturally, I have no real quarrel with you. Your post certainly has raised some food for thought. However, some of the comments sent a cold shiver down my back:
"marketing is inherently biased, skewed information designed to make you feel positive about the product."
"Instead, let's watch for Dime Sales from the likes of Robert Plank and George Plus." "Put a mark in the Signal column for each email with useful info and no sales links."
Dime sales? So if I spend time building case studies, profiles, useful content, you want me to turn around and give it to you for a dime? I'm going to need a whole mess of dimes to make my landlord happy!
Emails with no sales links? I find it slightly worrisome that marketers are getting upset when other marketers try to sell them things. This ain't charity.
"CONTENT, a word through around too liberally in internet marketing imho..."
I'm primarily a writer that discovered I could provide amazing content for people, bring value, and get paid for that value. I don't run mega-launches, or pester a bunch of JVs. In fact, I still even write honest to God letters and mail 'em snail-style. Talk about wanting a personal connection!
Guys, I understand the *problem*, but the people we're talking about in this thread have expenses and dreams just like any of us. I'm not one to say that an email with sales links is a bad one, or isn't considered "signal" -- my swipe file is filled to the brim with great email that had a link in it. I don't want to name more names and earn pitchforks at the same time. Oh wait, I'll name just one, the lady that convinced an itty bitty writer from Missouri to "rise above" the negativity surrounding marketing and go for it:
Alexis Dawes.
Marketing is without content? I've personally talked to Ms. Dawes, read her books -- nearly everyone she's put out, and to quote my man Andre 3000, "Value is what I'm talkin' 'bout!" She delivers, and I could probably name a couple other marketers I feel the same way about.
As for the "marking emails as spam" ... wow. If my list expects me to spend hours collecting information, testing and sharing experience without me even leaving a link to get paid ...well, I might catch flames about this (and yes, I left my *real marketer name* in this post - nice to meet y'all! ;D) but this is not charity. This is Marketing Club.
Just a wandering nichelady that stumbled across this post from Ed Dale on twitter. Stay paid, folks. If your beef is with the Stomper folks, build a resource that delivers the value you want to see.
If your beef is with marketers that "sell too much" (*giggle*), build a list that delivers the relationship you want to have.
But you know, as I'm often fond of saying, it's really not about getting paid. It's about staying paid. Seriously -- and that's why I think the post launch formula has to be refined so that you can "stay paid" without hacking off half the community. But I digress. I'm just a wanderer on a roll. ;)
Isabella Murphy
CaptainLou
· 1 year ago
Rick is a brave man treading in treacherous waters here!
As a marketer of group cruise vacations (that have 99% customer satisfaction and a zero refund rate), I sure am glad that most of MY launches are to niches outside of the IM world.
Personally, I have never even considered purchasing anything that didn't relate to building my core biz, no matter how many new bright & shiny "opportunities" are paraded in front of me.
Having said that, I am not put off by the ever-increasing high-ticket launches being done, nor have I unsubscribed from any email lists. I am constantly finding a little golden nugget here or there, be it in the "content" or just the marketing styles used.
And I've found that MANY programs really DO work, if you just consume he content and take MASSIVE immediate action (which most people don't).
If anyone wants to continue this conversation in person, please join me for a Pina Colada in the Aft. Jacuzzi on the Lido Deck of the Amazing Annual Internet...
But ideas can't be copyrighted or patented. Stomper is kinda the Microsoft of the IM world. They take the great stuff that's happening in the IM marketplace and package it for mass consumption, then unleash the uber-marketing beast on it!
After all, SEO Club was really the original StomperNet. A private place for sharing SEO secrets and links, and getting personal training. It was around long before even the Stomping the Search Engines ebook came out. In fact, I'm not going to name names, but someone with the initials "Brad" and "Fallon" was an SEO Club member way back before writing that book!
I don't have one single grumpy bone in my body over that issue. Brad and Andy have done some really great things and are an inspiration to everyone. I mean they're producing a feature film now, for crying out loud!
They didn't "steal" the idea of SEO Club. I chose to go a different direction back in 2004 by focusing on developing software for building SEO websites. Now my full attention is back at SEO Club.
They had me out to Atlanta to speak at one of the Stomper seminars, and that was a blast. It's all good stuff that we all share in this space. Getting upset about the details just removes positive energy from what you're working on.
No one commenting in this thread probably wants to hear it, but a lot of the frustration over one of these launches is just plain jealousy. They wish they had a network of friends that includes a "John Reese", a "Frank Kern", and a "Yanik". But the fact is those guys have been building their relationships and businesses for a whole lotta years, and they deserve what they have created. You'll have to make your own; put in the sweat, and tears.
Oh, and I have to agree with one commenter - Harris, if Twitter is a waste of time for you, you're not using it right! I spend less than 5 minutes a day on the thing and have gotten hundreds of list signups and several sales from it. It's another great communication medium.
End of Rant. Great job in getting me to contribute content to YOUR blog instead of MINE, Rick!
Adam T, I think you may have misunderstood the gist of what this thread is about, because unless I missed it, no one here has accused said marketers of spamming.
I consider spam to be those thousands of emails I get per week trying to sell me everything from fake name-brand purses to miracle cures that will enlarge something that being a woman, I don't even have to enlarge.
Spam IS NOT receiving emails from a list that YOU opted-in to receive, unless of course you request to be removed from the list and the list owner still sends you mail - and no ethical marketer that I know of would do something that stupid.
My beef is with the mailing lists that I joined, because I was promised helpful content or "training", yet the only "content" I receive from the list owner are ads for the latest and greatest product launch, giveaway, blah, blah, blah.
If that's all I want from a list, I can submitt my ads to one of the thousands of FAA sites or join a safelist.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who remembers when Brad was a newbie, Nathan.
For all you Twitter haters... I hate it too, but it's not useless.
If you do nothing else, just get that script that twits your blog posts for you and publish a link to your Twitter feed. Then check back and see how many followers you get. A lot of people prefer to get their news on Twitter.
If you can get Ed Dale to "follow" you, a couple hundred members of his Twitter army will be following you within a couple weeks.
Sharon Bray-McPherson
· 1 year ago
Oops, I meant FFA sites, not FAA. That's what I get for listening to Fox News report about the failed deal between United Airlines and US Air while writing my comment. My multi-tasking skills must be slipping.
One person said "some of the comments sent a cold shiver down my back:"...
and then they referenced one of my comments:
"marketing is inherently biased, skewed information designed to make you feel positive about the product." (I said this in an earlier post)
I hate to be the one to break it to anyone, but OF COURSE marketing info is skewed, always has been skewed and always will be skewed. That is the nature of marketing copy. Go take Marketing 101. To expect marketing copy to contain the authenticity of true objective reporting is naive in the extreme. (Not that true objective reporting is very common. Good luck finding any of that.) Heck no there's no authentic reporting because it's too polluted with marketing and PR crap. And I do mean crap.
Just like a romance novel gives the reader a skewed idea of the "real world" of relationships, marketing copy gives the reader a skewed view of the product.
This is not a JUDGEMENT, I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm saying that's how it IS. Whether it's good or bad depends on how it is used. A TV commercial is supposed to be hype. But if the pharmaseutical company produces a "video news release" that is a thinly veiled commerical passed off as news to hype their new miracle drug and they neglect to mention that pesky side effect of sudden death, well.....then that's not ok.
Does that reality make you shiver, ma'am? It happens ALL THE TIME.
Now if you do not believe marketing copy is INHERENTLY BIASED SKEWED INFORMATION DESIGNED TO MAKE YOU FEEL POSITIVE ABOUT THE PRODUCT, then you must be awfully confused by the world around you. As is about 90% of the population.
Marketers are constantly trying to pass of marketing copy as "real information" and a lot of people fall for it. Most people fall for it. Television is full of it. Which is why we have such an inauthentic world.
There are times when marketing copy can include some decent information, but when looked at as a whole, marketing information is NOT quality content meant to inform. It's meant to persuade. Big difference.
Sharon, somewhere out of the hundreds of posts there were a few threads where people mentioned that they unsubscribed to some marketers lists but continued to receive email from them.
I was just suggesting possible reasons why and be careful to call them spammers due to those reasons.
There were a few posts about that, but by the time mine got approved there were about 50 posts in between.
Adam
AndyBeard
· 1 year ago
Every single launch just goes into my swipe file, all nicely labelled in gmail, and I have backups.
One of my favorite takeaways from Rich Schefren's seminar last July was a printout of every single email and piece of promotional material that had led to the people in the conference being there. His whole marketing plan in a binder as a surprise that Dwain had spent a long time preparing.
I promoted Stompernet, and Rick even dropped me a message on Twitter that he didn't mean me in this post - I tried to add some value to what I wrote, and received some healthy editorial links.
There are all kinds of issues I still need to cover in a blog post regarding product launches and the new consumer protection laws appearing throughout Europe, especially when some aspect of the marketing might be looked on as Business to Consumer.
Just to stick a lever in the social media marketing history lessons, there is nothing really new about it from an SEO perspective. It is effectively the same as article marketing 3 years ago, though most people were looking at the benefit of the links from the articles themselves and not how they could be used for online reputation management and the benefit of creating hubs of content. Hmm, September 2005 http://ezinearticles.com/?Black-Hat-Search-Engi...
Even when I wrote that I doubt the ideas were new - I certainly wasn't very experienced at SEO at the time, and I didn't have my feelers in SEO circles, but it was original thought, my own ideas - yeah people can have similar thoughts and come to similar or related conclusions.
There was also the other emphasis with Article Marketing of writing articles so that the headline was attractive to a particular audience so that it might be picked up for wider distribution - email list owners - it is very similar to half of what is written about SMO these days. Chris from Ezine Articles even has a site with top 7 lists.
Jack was certainly one of the most vocal in 2005 about the benefits of article marketing
For me the primary focus is
1. Is it relevant for my audience, irrespective of whether I will make a fortune writing about it? 2. Can I write something that adds to the conversation that is the original / interesting? 3. Are the people running the program honest and honouring any guarantees?
Here some new stats for you, the internet marketing niche is jaded, I can tell by my search traffic.
I know the search traffic I received when Stompernet first launched, when Portal Feeder first launched - when Day Job Killer launched I received 3,000 visits from search traffic over the space of a week.
You don't see that kind of search traffic any more. I have a few good rankings for various products over the last 12 months.
In my opinion the savvy middle tier of marketers is pretty much burned out other than WSOs and private member deals. They are certainly not all subscribed to my blog.
Those that are buying are going for a 2 for 1 deal - e.g. get Altitude for free by joining Stompernet.
Disagreement is a spice that seems to perk up just about any dish, including blog posts. Lorraine gave me the benefit of a lengthy reply, it's only fair I give her the same respect.
I'm not arguing that marketing isn't skewed. I'm not arguing that marketing is a fountain of unbiased information. I'm kinda scratching my head and going, "So what if it is?" Maybe that's a tack that most people don't want to take these days, but please: everything is biased. I know that when I pick up the newspaper, a reporter is going to slip in their point of view, however slight. Maybe I'm reading the wrong newspapers. Could you point me to a newspaper or body of work that doesn't have any bias, please? I would love to read it.
I DO owe you an apology, both to you and the people following this thread -- I neglected to add the names of the people I quoted. It makes it difficult to follow the conversation, and I regret being unable to edit my own comment to correct that.
However: I am not naive, nor confused. I'm not expecting marketing to do anything other than offer a product. The notion that we mere mortals are just too weak to pass up marketing copy isn't one I subscribe to, and I'm sure you don't either.
So, Lorraine: is persuasion a bad thing? It's a tool like any other, kind of the way I view my father's hacksaw. If I don't use it right, it might hack off part of my leg, but if I use it with finesse, I accomplish what I came to do.
I'm having a hard time quarreling with you, Lorraine, because I think we're saying the same things in some places, just slightly differently. The bane of text. I admire your cynicism though; maybe I'm just too naive to let it affect what I've set out to accomplish with my marketing. To each their own.
Digging into the guts of advertising is a pastime of mine. I don't buy everything on tv, even if it's presented to my so-called demographic. That 90% of the population probably could say the same.
Isabella Murphy, who can't keep her mouth shut either
Just wanted to footnote here, I did receive a refund from Stompernet with no problems. I'll be reminded of my buyer's remorse the next time I can't live without seeing what's behind the curtain...
As for the excessive repetitious email from marketers you try to unsub from, often the ubiquitous squeeze page is the problem, when you have to give it up every time to get past the gatekeeper. I once had more than 10 dupes of every email from a certain relentless list-builder.
Lots of fun and insights in these comments - thanks to all.
Rick I got your email about your live Ustream tv show. By the time I got there it must of been over.
Anyways, I started watching a replay of one of your shows, where your wearing a red Hawaiin shirt with a bookshelf behind you...
Oh the irony!! Your bookshelf is filled with Stompernet DVD's!!! I'd recognize those expensive dust-collecting bookends anywhere because they are sitting on my shelves too!
I just found that sooo freakin hilarious, given this latest thread. Please keep the entertainment and laughs coming!
Rick did a awesome live show today and I blogged the chat transcript for all to read:) Enjoy http://urlbrief.com/f7065a
Michael
· 1 year ago
Lorraine,
i like your comparison of marketing with a romance novel very much - in a positive way.
I would even go one step further and say, yes, good marketing SHOULD make people fall for the info, and most of all make them fall in LOVE with the product or service being marketed ...*-)
I'm listening toyour show, and I'm finding that you seem to bea very down to earth guy.
I'm very new to internet marketing, and it seems to methat almost everyone I see is selling everyone elses stuff. This thing goes on an on and on to the point, where I wonder if these people have anything else to do.
I understand that there is money in selling other peoples products, I sell a few products in particular niches, which have nothing to do with IM.
What is a new person supposed to believe. Whats what, whos who, what do you believe and who do you follow.
I'm so overloaded with information thats its mind boggling. Any Suggestions.
Lost and Confused Timothy
Kenny Handelman
· 1 year ago
Rick - Thanks for a great post. I agree with your core message - and I unsubscribed months ago from many email lists - except for a handful of those that I really find useful and want to follow (I think I only got about 2 different people endorsing stomper). When I was getting started, I remember thinking that going through all of those emails was accomplishing something. It wasn't! It was reading commercials for minutes to hours! I don't think stomper is evil, and I don't think product launches are either. I think it is the marketing to marketers - when everyone else owns PLF as well - that it becomes a bit absurd. I think the biggest issue is: is your marketing consistent with who you are and your relationship with your subscribers/ customers. If it is - then they will enjoy and be excited by your launch. If it isn't - they will be angry and frustrated. That's all I have to say - except for the fact that I spent a lot more time reading this post then I did reading stomper emails - LOL! Kenny
Hector Macgregor! I just deleted 100 notifications of these comments from my email :) I'm enjoying this discussion albeit most of it is over my head. But for all that It is interesting that I recognise only 2 or 3 names here (apart from Stompernet) that regularly send stuff to my email box.
That said the 100+ other sub affiliates that repeatedly send emails to me of their latest and greatest products need to read this commentary.
[From a purchaser's viewpoint:] I have noticed, as mentioned above several times, that even some of the once passive marketers are starting this 'only 6 more ***** for sale, and the doors close' tactic. Shoot, some of them are even trying that with products that were touted months ago.
And what's with this tactic? "After 200 personal sales and the doors will close, and after 200 MMR sales the door will close, and after 200 PLR sales the doors will close." All for the same product???? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Another thing that ALL marketers need to get right is their subscription lists. I remain on several after I have purchased products, but come on guys.. check that I've made a purchase and stop trying to sell me the same stuff again... Which as it happens I've doubled up as a purchaser several times, and it is embarrassing having to ask for a refund. But you would think that the moment my Paypal address is entered it would check against a purchaser list or something.
Yeah I know I should be more vigilant when buying, but sometimes the ad copy has changed and its not until you get the product you realise you've already got the product. [End of purchasers viewpoint.]
How about Eben Pagan? I get more junk mail from people promoting his crap than even stompernet emails. Heck, I even get emails from Stompernet promoting Eben Pagan.
And I can't even tell what this guy, Pagan, is selling.
Andy Jenkins - StomperNet
· 1 year ago
Testing, Testing.... Is this thing on?
Thanks everyone for ALL of your opinions -- raw, uncensored, and reasoned.
When StomperNet releases a product we make an honest effort to add value to the marketplace. The GoingNatural Videos that we produce are our sincere attempt to give - and from the feedback that we receive, they seem to be having that effect.
But, many of you seem dissatisfied, so, we'll just try harder.
For those of you who have expressed a specific or personal grievance towards me or the company, please accept my sincere apology if I've offended or if there are outstanding issues that need to be resolved.
Rick, thanks for the way you've tried to moderate this thread. For the record, Rick and I have enjoyed an interesting, albeit distant relationship.
BTW Rick, you need to update your StomperNet affiliate account information. Your affiliate ID is 48.
And Michael Campbell - congratulations! You won one of the affiliate prizes! Check your email for the....
...oh, wait.
:)
And Colin "Google" McDougall - I know you didn't mean to suggest that STOMPERNET told it's newsletter subscribers to clear their cookies, right? Because we didn't - ever.
But an Affiliate did, and it was a rookie mistake on the AFFILIATES part. But it wasn't STOMPERNET as you suggest. Just to be crystal clear.
Craig Dewe
· 1 year ago
Wow...nice discussion you've unleashed here Rick.
Quick question: Does anyone understand the Rich Schefren 'strategic venture' with StomperNet?
After all the hype that Rich put into it, all that seemed to happen was he offered a trial membership of his Business Growth System...and still charged $47 for it? To me, this seemed like a complete joke.
If anyone could explain how this 'strategic alliance' really works I would appreciate it. I'm about to lose respect for someone who I thought was above all this.
Christopher Flores
· 1 year ago
BOO the content is crap. BOO
DOWN WITH STOMPER DOWN WITH STOMP ... oh yea we're not doing that anymore hee hee :)
I'm sincerely joking there, don't rally behind any stomper bashing. I'm just instigating.
I just think it's great that such an open conversation is going on in this industry, on this blog.
Not only that, but that it's going on with producers, contributors, insiders AND customers. That to me is the very meaning of free exchange ... if only in this particular instance and in this particular industry. It's fair, raw, honest, and balanced.
To Andy Jenkins: Quote: "And Michael Campbell - congratulations! You won one of the affiliate prizes!"
Thanks Andy, but please donate any prize, or its cash equivalent to charity. Your local homeless shelter would be great. And let's pray to God that none of us will ever have to use it.
Yoon Ho Um
· 1 year ago
Hi Peeps,
Ed Dale Twittered this post... scrolled down, read so many comments, finally got to his... people find/re-read his post. Learn from the launch of Stompernet(or any launch for that matter)...
all of you complaining about the number of emails sent especially on launch day... you are all on the same lists[generalization, of course] and subscribed to WAY too MANY, MANY(how many...?) lists... it's no wonder you are getting bombarded and sick of it. Now I ask you: wouldn't you like to have that many people promoting you???
What do you expect? Only one person allowed to be an affiliate? Or "let's all get together and make sure we have no duplicates and then safely email our lists, we don't want to make our subscribers mad..."
Should one only promote something noone else is?
Dare I say I don't care if you unsubscribe anyways... that you are not a good subscriber? And good riddance? Naw, that wouldn't be Politically Correct... ; P
Try this: use a new email address, sign up for The 30 Day Challenge, read all the emails and follow everything that Ed tells you to do. Ignore everything else.
Why get upset with "replace your cookies"? Affiliate Marketers have been doing it for how long now?
Who's First... someone may claim to be first @ teaching/speaking about something like social media marketing - like someone proclaiming to be "THE Facebook King"(not the title he uses but it reveals how he BRANDS himself).
Think about how many times the Internet Marketing Gurus were NOT early adopters... & then suddenly, they all jumped on the proverbial band wagon... like using YouTube or Facebook. Not to brag or boast but I was on YouTube and Facebook WAY before MOST of you(how many of you reading this were on YouTube in 2006? using Facebook more then one month ago? - no, gotcha there! I was there last year...)
And think about all the people we don't know about who have been using social media all along and have translated that into awesome careers, businessess, etc.
Look @ Yanik's Underground Seminars, he has had First Time Speakers there that most of us would NEVER have known about. How many more are out there in all those different niches?
Learn from what Rick did. Include you affiliate link and promote something else while you make controversial commentary...
The #1 reason I "Hate" the Warrior Forum is because of easily bruised EGOS and everyone "having an opinion"... and all the attacks, taking things out of context, misreading, taking things way too personally... being VERY immature(I've even seen "you can't even spell 'whatever the word is' types of responses")... & all the "I, I, I" never taking into consideration that there's a person there you are talking about/talking to... maybe they need to read "How to win Friends & Influence People"...
#2 reason: buying WSOs... ; P
I LOVE the Videos from Stompernet. Who cares about the membership. Most people haven't even used the info there to do anything... go watch them again, learn and do.
Had an interesting conversation with my friend's younger brother when I was talking about how my best friend tells me about some email he's received and how he couldn't believe someone would say whatever it was in that tone... I will read the same one and explain to him that it was the exact opposite intent the person had or how he failed to read a portion of it... context...
... so my friend's bro was like... "Well, everyone expects the worst so whatever they read is going to have a negative slant to it..."(paraphrased) think he's onto something there...
And it's funny when people post and use it for blatant self promotion... and I'm sure that someone here's going to think "he's talking about me..." and then "that singular person I'm talking about - yeah you!" will post "I know you're talking about me..." Um, like you're that important...? Like, get over yourself... ; P
One issue with a launch like Stompernet is that there isn't enough time for an affiliate to test out the info contained in the membership to give their subscribers a personal success story since the site closes it's doors so soon... so by the time one has results, oops! "too late, there are no more spots, doors have closed", but you can still watch the videos, grab the free software, etc.
I would love to be able to gain access to Stompernet and the brainiacs(The Faculty) behind Stompernet.
Look at how peeved people were with Eben Pagan's launch last year... maybe even his latest one too...?
Original?
how many times have you read/heard/seen someone write/say/show something you were already doing but they were the first one that you knew of to actually reveal it publicly(read this again)? They were the 1st you knew of BUT there may have been others but you were not on their list, reading their blog, part of their social network, etc.
How many of you are not unsubscribing from these lists you subscribed to but are now practising BACN...? Most of you won't know what this is. Does this make me the King of BACN...? Are you going to tell everyone about how you first heard about this from me? This genius social media guru...? And yes, this is meant to be taken in a non-serious manner...
Nope. You may not care. You may read up on it somewhere. Maybe even blog about it and say something to the extent of "Have you heard about BACN? Well, let me be the first to tell you about it..."
Sometimes it's better not to read and get involved in posts like this one... you probably have the wrong opinion, you're probably too emotional, you're probably reading out of context, you probably love the controversy and need to get a life, you probably should unsubscribe from the person's email list you belong to who led you to this post, you're probably better off wasting your time twittering instead... ; P
And if you're easily offended or can't get that I'm making fun of what others have written and will write(including what I wrote too)... I'm sorry...? ; P
God Bless You(yes, YOU! & I'm being serious), Yoon - "Um, I'm not addicted to Facebook... I'm on Myspace too..."
P.S. I'm not sub'ing to the follow-up comments so I won't be getting back to your comments
P.P.S. Great advice about not posting when you're at a high-emotional state... I've been there where I'm SO glad I didn't get involved in a "conversation" in a forum(can you guess which one?). Do take time to review what you are about to post. Ask yourself why you are posting it. Is it adding value? Is it personally attacking someone or tackling the actual issue at hand? Mant times things are resolved without your help. ; P
I love it when peeps are man enough(haven't seen too many women blasting one another like you guys do - look, I'm staying out of this one... ; P) to apologize - saying "I'm sorry".
P.P.P.S. Please no one beat anyone up @ the next seminar... play nice. You can shred each other apart online instead... how about some testimonials instead?
P.P.P.P.S. The problem with text is that you can't really gauge what someone it really trying to convey to you... only in person can you really know what they actually mean. Less misunderstanding... ever had it where your text message was taken completely the wrong way?
I just talked to Andy Jenkins and have to say he is one heck of a guy.
Please, Rick - Let's cease this thread right now...
This conversation is OVER :- )
Rick my friend - Let's just delete this thread from your blog immediately.
Cheers to all!
Linda Lupowitz
· 1 year ago
I have to agree with Colin, it's time to shut it down. But thanks for the ride. Lots of conversation brings about an evolving, exciting, interactive space which needs not descend into madness.
For the guy who asked, listen to Eben Pagan, and with all the subtle and not so subtle psychological triggers aside (like the scarcity and time-constraints, he delivers an amazing gift, his own experience - far beyond the "free line" -- he has the real deal, listen to everything he says.
Stompernet is fun, organized, collaborative, innovative and generous with free counseling and direction and tools and truth. The faculty is a wonder.Resources and archiving of all the evolving technology.
Jack Humphrey is breaking ground and keeping us laughing.ASC really delivers...It all takes time, and focus. ASC is the choice for me.
Howie's a hoot, a bit wild but shakes it up and reminds us that we are the only limitation to our own success. Here's a real community that is growing and getting smarter.
Rick, thanks for the opportunity, keep it chill and remember, the doors are open now, walk on through.
Thank you so much for your support and helping to make this post by far the most linked, digges, and commented post I've ever created.
Today I went back through all these comments and realized I'd been unfair and unkind in allowing the discussion to degenerate into occasional Stompernet bashing.
Caught up in the momentum, (and, frankly unfamiliar with moderating such a crazy volume of posts), I failed to use prudent judgement in stopping personal attacks - about which even the original posters came back in and apologized.
A clue.
This brings to a close the discussion here - and to remind us all that the POINT was:
1. Reducing email overload 2. My personal gripes about product launches 3. Trying to help my readers focus on activity vs opportunity and prevail in achieving success.
Thanks, Rick Butts
Alexandra Barrett
· 1 year ago
all right all ready ! (alright,already!)
Are we done spanking Stompernet yet??????
who's next??
Mitchell Dominguez
· 1 year ago
As Mick Jagger once said, "Too Much Is Never Enough". Just let the mass emails from the likes of StomperNet and other Product Launches wash over you. It's really no big deal. My partner and I are "Salesmen" not "Marketeers"(spelled like that as in "Bucaneers". Only took up marketing because as "Salesmen" most Mktg. stuff was just so down in the mud awful.
So what if StomperNet and their affiliates send you a ton of launch stuff. It only lasts a month or so. Learn/Swipe File what U can from the "Copy" and move on.
By the way, my partner and I a.k.a. "2 Older Dudes" always sell actual products, no "How 2 Methods". We do Online Security Services and sell or recommend only highly researched and verified online security products.
We are not "Civilians" like you folks but we still like you!
Really, Honestly, & Truly Liked Scotts' Report.
All The Best: Mitchell Dominguez
Monique Briand
· 1 year ago
Award Of The Day... goes to Rick Butts!
I vibrantly applaud you for remaining interactive in the feed Rick.
As you are laying things out and reacting to the feedback you are collecting here in your blog community, I expect I will see your Quality shown by following this thread here that you have created.
I want to digest the interesting comments of the entourage you have manifested here Rick and get a hint of their Quality as well and to allow them to peer into mine.
Many of these people chatting here are my friends as well on facebook and myspace, etc.
Through this opportunity you have set up here Rick, people are being attracted here for a common purpose, to answer the questions you put out... into the Universe / Internet / Twitterverse... so that you can connect with people on a personal level all over the world, sharing knowledge, contacts and resources while evolving.
I posted my fairly long opinion over at Ross's, but I had to come back here & re-read your Dear Guru letter. Absolutely too funny. And sadly all too true. However, with all the cross promotion and cookie cutter ready made "just cut 'n' paste" affiliate promotions out there, what do you expect? Every brother and their dog has a video, and with many of them the quality stinks, you can tell they have nothing sensible to say. Nothing creative. The lists contain the same people, so in effect they are all preaching to the same choir. Last year I listened to yet another newbie strikes it rich interview. An interesting point was that the guy had an unusually high response from his list. Neither interviewer nor interviewee had a real explanation. I re-listened and realized that it was due to where his list had come from. By luck, his list came from sources other than the same old tired IM subscription junkies. (Me included -- but -- I never got his original promo, I was subbed to to a later affiliate) A-hah! A "virgin" list. Better results from preaching to a new choir! This bit of understanding (and it was free), was further reinforced when I got at least 2 dozen cookie cutter promos for the same thing, some even had the same bonuses. Nothing personal, but I would not have learned this if I hadn't been subscribed to everything. LOL BTW, I'll be subscribing to this as well, now that I know it's here. SM
Ian Chapman
· 1 year ago
I just stumbled upon this revealing discussion while finishing my own blog post about Spam on facebook, and instead of finishing what I should have been doing . I spent a good two hours reading all the comments. I have been a subscriber to Stompernet's newsletter since last November, they definitely won my heart and gained my loyalty, but I can also resonate with what many are saying about the bombardment of emails from all the other affiliates. Especially in the last month, my interest in my file of internet marketing newsletters has dwindled. I can't tell if its because I have become a bit jaded or the fact that I am no longer such a newbie and tend to spend my valuable time building my own business instead of reading about other peoples successes or their new must have products. I am savvy enough to know that you can find any information that you want for free if you know where to look on the internet. There are enough great blogs and forums to keep anyone busy for a couple of lifetimes. That is where the real problems lies, having the discipline to know what not to read and to keep focussed on actions that add real value. I am learning quickly and am grateful I took the time and effort to organise all the information I was sent or found in other places. I stick everything useful into Microsoft One Note in separate sections and topics. Then I can reference it at a later date. I love uncovering little gems and links to things that were meaningless to me at the time but now that I have more experience I can use and apply in my own business.
Just from reading this post I gained a lot of new insights so it was not time wasted, I discovered some new people who I should be paying attention to and filed away some useful titbits for later use. I also got to participate in what will probably become a legendary bog post and can add my comment alongside some of my more famous internet mentors.
Its also been a bit of a history lesson from some of the people who have been around a lot longer than me and has revealed some of the ugly rifts and camps that seem to be present in this industry. Is it just money or jealousy that creates this?
I don't know much about you Rick but as you seem to have an interesting blog that I will investigate further, I am sure there is something I can learn from you. If only to understand the tactic of posting something controversial and then reaping the benefits of all the extra traffic and exposure you get for doing this.
internetseo
· 1 year ago
It's nice to see someone stand up and slap these guys across the jowls. Yeah, I want to make a ton of money on the Internet and retire to the south of France, too, but I want to be able to sleep with myself when I get there.
The only two people I've found that I trust (mainly because I've bought their products and were roundly impressed by them) are Terry Dean and John Reese.
I don't resell their products and I'm not an affiliate for them. I just use what I learned from them to help me promote and sell my own products and services.
Value for the money. That's a pretty rare thing in the "Internet Marketing" arena.
marc in China
· 1 year ago
good advice. i will proceed to unsuscribe from your feed. thanks
I actually took the time to read a large number of the entries in this thread. It certainly became a Who's Who of Internet Marketing these days.
I realize that this is probably no longer monitored but I just wanted to put one last post in here. This is all about copy writing. It seems that all the best copy writers are now in the Internet Marketing business because there only seem to be two places where such talents are valued. Either the direct mail business or the Internet Marketing business. It's a shame.
I've worked hard to try and explain to business owners the value of strong copy writing and they just don't get it. Every day I hear, "I can write. Why should I pay someone to do that?"
And yet every day, Internet Marketers prove the value of good copy writing. Any thoughts on how to translate that to the education of business owners or am I wasting my breath?
Rick
· 1 year ago
marc in china -
you missed the action here by several months so I'm sure you aren't really subscribed to my feed.
we won't miss you here - and I think you know why.
Rick
Rick
· 1 year ago
Copywriting is alive and well on the web - just not being used by bigger companies because, as always, they have more money than brains.
Copy pervades email, autoresponder messages, optins, offers, sales letters, in fact anyone who doesn't use good copy principles every step along the way is missing out on giving themselves a raise.
Rick
Revivogen
· 1 year ago
There are a lot of good points. Thanks for the post good read.
Amy
· 1 year ago
Great post,thank you. At last, some fresh air.
I was wondering if anyone had tried Michelle MacPhearsons product and got the results that she has had without Google cracking the shits and banning them for doing sneaky things? IS it legit? Will it work long term? Is it just an overnight success or will it increase my income fromnow on?
I won't ask her because A) I'll get a support ticket and no one will ever help or respond to me and B) If I did get a response it would probably be what she thinks I want to hear.
I want to know the truth. Guru's shit me off. I just want the damn truth!!
Cheers, Amy
Lorraine Grula
· 1 year ago
Hi Amy.
You ask about Michelle MacPhearsons product and I assume you mean tubinator, which is software for automating the friend request and comment process on you tube.
I have tubinator. I have had mixed results with it. One REALLY important thing about using it is to use the "time delay" feature found in options. This spaces out your friend requests at whatever length of time you specify.
In my experience, you have to put the time delay on relatively high numbers...9 minutes to 12 minutes between requests. Anything less than that and you tube will make you stop after just a few requests.
I never got banned or anything, but I was afraid I would.
Having to go so slowly sort of defeats the purpose of using the software but not 100%. It has still helped me increase the number of "friends" I have on you tube but you can not get a million friends overnight.
I sometimes let tubinator run while I am asleep and at the high time delay, it will send out about 50 requests while I snooze.
My you tube videos still do not have very high ratings though, but it has helped some. With 60,000 video uploads a day, it is very hard to get noticed on you tube.
Tubinator was fairly inexpensive and I do not regret buying it at all.
I hope this answers you question in a fair, balanced and honest way. My experiences do not necessarily reflect anyone else's experiences but I would imagine my experiences are typical.
I hate Mike Filsaime and his freaking emails he is the real example of a bullshit marketer!
Teena
· 1 year ago
Hey Rick,
Teena in Australia here - after reading your post I downloaded Scott's book and holy moley! A breath of fresh air!!
I did the guru-unsub about a year ago, and recently found I'd subscribed to a whole chain of others, so this was a good whack on the side of the head.
Scott's hit the nail on the head - let's build relationships with our clients, give them worthwhile information, products and services, and then nurture them by being friendly and honest.
This is the only way to go to build a sustainable business adventure.
A really good idea for people who need to waste less time with their e-mails.
PlayendTada
· 1 year ago
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California Jerry
· 11 months ago
I'm impressed with all the big names of internet marketing assembled here, and what a great exchange of ideas.
Regarding the original topic: Sometimes, when I say something and someone disagrees with me, it gives me an opportunity to assess and digest NEW INFORMATION.
At one time I found value in subscribing to different newsletters. But, now I need to stay focused on my project(s) at hand. I don't need new information, I need to implement with what I already know. Later on, I will need to gather some of the archived information when I ready to implement it.
All Comments
[iamsbm]
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/sbraymcpherson
Lisa Prestons last blog post..Indiana Jones? Old News! Check Out “Havana Blake!”
It's refreshing to have people step out of the hype of the carefully crafted salesletter and be real. Your point about relationships is great, and Michelle is another person who hasn't released a product before providing value to the SEO/SEM community.
In a word, "Thanks!".
David - About Results Marketings last blog post..The 12 Most Useful Social Bookmarking & Autoposting Tools for Your Blog
Kudos to you for having the courage to be first to say it out loud...
Cheers my friend and look forward to seeing you in Denver very soon!!!!
Kudos to you for having the courage to be first to say it out loud...
Cheers my friend and look forward to seeing you in Denver very soon!!!!
Kims last blog post..Foot Pain Relief For Children
A great bit of advice, I get that much junk mail that I hardly have time to view the ones that count, system overload.
Keep up the good work
Gordon
You're right about Michelle and Scott. I've been following them lately and their info is really eye opening!
Sincerely,
Roger Auge
Canada
Kevin
Thanks to everyone who took the time to post a comment here (and get that groovy kind of Comment Luv Links!)
The times they are a changing - as veteran Internet marketers can smell the burnt toast and newbies, interestingly enough - are catching on much quicker - because of people like you.
Off to bed - can't wait to see what the morning brings.
I love Brad and Andy, and I know they seriously deliver. But the entire Product Launch madness is just wrong. Stomper is probably one of the few "launches" that has a proven product with proof.
The entire "formula" approach is fundamentally flawed. It allows really terrible products to come to market and do well financially. The market does not have time to see the product and give an honest evaluation before the doors are closed. So the entire "launch" is sales to people who haven't seen the product... from affiliates that haven't used the product... to a marketplace that hasn't had a chance to give an opinion.
Recipe for disaster, IMHO.
I cannot argue, though, that the method WORKS. I just can't use it with a clear conscience.
I'll never "launch" SEO Club... for example. ;) http://www.SEOClub.com.
-Nathan
You've heard of Parrotheads ...Jimmy Buffet fame. BTW, when I was in college we went to a Buffect concert...early 70's. About 300 people there and he was wasted. Ran into him latter that night passed out in a booth in a Samboo's Resturant....of course there are no more Samboo's resturants.
Anyway...maybe we should be Buttheads or should I say fans of Rick Butts could be Buttheads....or is that TM'd already :)
Rick, I posted on my blog about your post...where's your trackback link...I guessed at one. My post is at http://desktop-wealth.com/blog/internet-markete...
Scott Parat
I receive at least 50 emails about Stompernet. This is common whenever there is a mega launch. But I don't unsubscribe them. I make them pay for polluting my inbox. I found a way which is faster and better than taking the trouble to unsubscribe.
Since I am using Gmail, I just type "Stompernet" and click on the Search Mail button, then click Unread and Delete button. It's gone within seconds.
I keep the subscription because I know for every email sent, they are losing money. It is costly to send an email these days.
It is not the size of your email database that matters, not the quality of the database either, it's about creating trust, the most valuable currency in the internet world.
Have I disappointed you "offline?" LOL
Thanks for the very kind words...
Your friend,
Rick
Your site pinged mine Scott - and I approved the trackback so good job!
Rick
Here it is in case you missed it - (I adore trackbacks!)
http://rickbutts.com/240/unsubscribe-stompernet...
I agree totally. Give the bad guys the boot, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Frans
Nathan is a world class good guy, and not a troublemaker like me, I respect that he took the time to share such powerful words here.
His http://SEOClub.com is a very valuable resource, and if launches were done on merit - SEOClub would be right at the top.
Must agree completely.
Tony
The "Projectile Launch" method and all of it's components got approximately 1800 people to pony up a commitment to pay $9,600 per year - then within 3 months nearly 1000 of them had quit or refunded.
This sort of thing just sucks the oxygen out of the market for good products and creates skepticism for us all.
In general - massive amounts of content only serve to overwhelm and confuse someone who is trying to figure out how to make money online.
There are many ways to sell a product but the Product Launch method - as it is performed by Internet marketers with huge lists - is a doggone shame.
Sorry boys I'm deleting the lot of you! :-)
Adhering to my own advice about throwing out the baby with the bath water I must, however, say that Rick's given some very good advice here. Rather follow one or two people thoroughly than ane hundred not at all.
Cheers
Frans
Good point about being critical of a product one may know nothing about.
Still, I have to insist that it is the manner of promotion, combined with an evaluation of the quality of what a particular person is emailing you.
This can range from an offer-a-day with very little content, to all points in between.
And, more to the point, how does being on this list impact your success?
If it has you chasing opportunities, and opting into more lists that send you more offers, when you could be executing productive activities on your own core business, then you should evaluate this for yourself.
I'm trying to be helpful here - we all work alone - and it's very easy to confuse email marketing with "industry news."
I did actually have one email from someone who uses Stomper and is happy with the service.
He was the only one though - who gave figures and stats of how his traffic has increased.
And to be fair - it was a very non hypey and non pushy email.
As for the others ... well everything has already been said here!
Now I'll have to consider looking at the 'cure' - just to satisfy my own curiosity (darn you for being straight....lol)
Best Regards
Randy
www.SalesLetterABC.com
Randy Smiths last blog post..Another 2 Free Gifts, & The Massive GiveAway is Doing Well!
Thanks for writing what Ive been thinking!
ps, do YOU twitter?
http://twitter.com/SonjaHelga
Ruths last blog post..30-day Trial of the Rebuild Your Vision Program
Keep up the good work.
Frans
The program can certainly help folks out, and I have seen some great successes (from others). However, the info overload is, or was for me, just too much to wade through. Good guys, good program, but you had better be prepared to hit the ground running fast to get your thousand/month membership money, and you had better have some skills to take advantage as well.
I recently trimmed out a number of side projects in favor of the stuff that really fit me. It's made me a little nervous but at the same time it's very liberating to trim the fat and focus on what matters...
Rick...today you're the voice of reason. Let's not burn the members of the "syndicate" who clogged our in-boxes this week...let's just stop listening to them.
David Ledouxs last blog post..I Call Shenanigans!
I tried "Stomper" when it was brand new. My bottom line: TMI. (Too much information).
I like your stuff. Clean content, ACTIONABLE, bites small enough to digest at one sitting. You never give me heartburn!
And unlike many of the pseudo-gurus, your dispatches always give me genuine help, not just a thinly-veiled sales pitch.
Please keep up the good work and know that many of us think YOU are the "Uber-guru." I look forward to meeting you one day!
In Health,
Dr. Dana Myatt
Find me online (and with a better website than before thanks to Rick) at www.DoctorMyatt.com
Reminds me of the line from the movie "Network": "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more!" And we DON'T
have to take it.
Let's all put a stop to this disturbing trend in the most effective way possible: Vote with your wallet or purse. Don't buy this over-hyped and over-priced stuff (while under the influence of the 'urgency' factor.)
Instead, let's watch for Dime Sales from the likes of Robert Plank and George Plus. Buy small, inexpensive products that we can actually use the same day. Buy it, use it, profit from it and then - and only then - offer it to people who listen to us (provided it's actually useful and profitable.)
Just so everyone knows, gmail has a nifty feature that seems to be under-used. Click the checkbox next to a message, then click the 'Report Spam' button. After that, all emails from that address go into the spam folder, where they will be deleted automatically after 30 days.
Alison (not using my real name becuase I have too many friends in the business...)
P.S. The URL I gave goes to a site offering a useful, free, no-strings-attached service. Enjoy.
To follow the conversation about this on twitter, go to http://summize.com/search?q=stompernet.
Thought your readers might enjoy this resource: www.thetwitterguide.com
Barbara
@wiredprworks on twitter.com
Go through a fairly large sample of the emails from any list you're on. Make two columns on a sheet of paper (physical or electronic; it doesn't matter) labeled "Signal" and "Noise".
Put a mark in the Signal column for each email with useful info and no sales links. Put a mark in the Noise column for each email selling something without providing any useful info. Emails with some of each? Put a mark in BOTH columns.
Add up the marks and divide the Signal total by the Noise total. Multiply by 100%. If you're getting more than 2 emails a week from the list, subtract another 10%. That's their Signal-to-Noise ratio, adjusted for information overload.
The lists with a low Signal-to-Noise ratio are more interested in selling you stuff than helping you succeed. The math proves it!
Adam - the math geek from High School
This is just way too rad for poor little me to get my stroke damaged brain around. LOL
I do agree that those promo emails are mayby 1 percent something (if that) and 99 percent nothing! (kinda like what we bring home from the store, a little meat and a lot of packaging)
I will take a few minutes and unsubscribe from the ones that I just delete anyway. (You gotta take out the garbage before it starts smellin up the house, right...)
It's good to have a "take out the garbage" routine (maybe once a week)
Thanks for your words of wisdom and remember keep it simple (any more than one page is just a waste of time...yours and mine)
Smiles :o)
Gary
Gary Grays last blog post..garydotgray: Morning to all of my Twitter followers. Been up for three hours but I was working on another project before turning on the puter.
I'm so sick of marketers that forgot why I subscribed in the first place. I was looking for some honest help, but all they offer is the same "buy the latest thing" crap.
I was fortunate to attend Michelle and Alejandro's webinar last night and it was a breath of fresh air in the smog of old-style direct marketing madness.
Off to unsubscribe from some lists...
I'm very careful about what is sent to my lists. I try to review any product I recommend. I will only recommend products I haven't used if I know the producer well enough to know they do good work. If there is a long enough guarantee that protects the buyer if it doesn't live up to their expectations and if there is a way for the customer to contact the product provider.
I'll read Scott's book, but I also noticed that his affiliate program pays $.50 for each confirmed subscriber we send to him. He doesn't say if he pays affiliate commissions for other sales that our lists make once they do subscribe.
This has been a change in the industry over the past couple of years. There are clever promotions that might pay even 100% of a product promoted but the affiliate sees not a dime of future sales from their referrals.
When we added new products at First Step Internet Marketing, if we pay a commission on one, all affiliates who referred the customer, whether now or earlier also get paid on that sale. Most of these promotions are one time hits, then that customer and all future sales belong to them. Is that right? I don't know. But that book better be damn compelling before I promote my list for $.50 cents.
Regards,
Tom Justin
Just took a quick look at the ebook and webinar links that you recomended.
Sorry to say I was NOT impressed on first look (just another list building flypaper page)
So I passed on BOTH offers.
Maybe later but NOT after just reading your post on this same stuff...
I think I would like to follow for a bit till I get to know more about your friends before signing up to another MAILING LIST...
If they really had the (uknows) Why not share without the squeeze and rather an invite to follow and or contact with some feedback.
I know that is a novel idea but what the hay. Isn't trust and relationship marketing what this new Web 2.0, Web 3.0 stuff all about?
Food for thought.
Smiles :o)
Gary
Gary Grays last blog post..garydotgray: Morning to all of my Twitter followers. Been up for three hours but I was working on another project before turning on the puter.
But today I took Rick's advice and unsubscribed from a well-known marketer's list. I also deleted over 500 emails from that list. Take that, you money-hungry pig!
Thanks for putting me on the road to recovery, Rick!
It's funny and has some excellent answers for the chief destroyer of our success as pointed out by Rich Schefren - "Opportunity Chasing."
Yes, Scott pays a 50cent commission for each referral who opts in and downloads the ebook. It's part of how he gets such a viral campaign so wide - this book is spreading like a wildfire and good for him.
I notice Michelle MacPhearson Tweeted about it cause it's really good. (and why I put it in this post - because it is dead on topic.)
Yes, I'm sure Scott has a program he will offer to this list - but you can bet you won't get "launched" on. LOL
Rick
Also, any help you can give me by Twittering it - or hitting me on Digg, Delicious, Facebook or any of the social sites you use.
I'd be very grateful!
Rick
I should have said that faculty are not included in my "usual suspects" round up.
This is all one man's opinion (and a few seem to agree) but mailing for your OWN stuff is expected.
Everyone knows what I'm talking about here and I don't put you in this group.
You do 2 things that really set you apart from the herd - you are very transparent - and you ALWAYS bring lots of content along with your hammer head, high thud-factor-priced excellent content.
I have a lot of respect for you Frank. Showing up here with a sense of humor is totally in alignment with who you are.
Rick
I love this blog post!
I was just about to twitter how glad I am that I'm not
involved in this whole Stomper Net Launch!
I only promote products or services that I actively
use or am personally involved in.
Yes, I get tired of product launches because they
happen so often, that I get worn out by them.
Yes, the product launch formula does work, but
in the internet marketing space it's overdone.
I love your email reply to send back to the person.
And yes, I never like the 'do-not-reply@domain.com'
does not build a relationship.
Cheers,
Christina
"The Shopping Cart Queen"
I took the same approach I do about the news... I don't watch it. If it's that important, I'll eventually hear about it. Same thing with this product promotions. If the product is that great, I'll hear about after all the hype.
Yes, I formed a core group of mentor peeps that I follow. Saves me countless hours of email junk.
Good Post Rick
Ann Rusnak
"The Time Diva"
Ann Rusnak ~The Time Divas last blog post..7 Tips for Managing Your Business Time
Tagging these emails as SPAM is very irresponsible! You opted in to everyone of these marketers list and agreed to receive their messages. Just because you don't like the messages does not classify them as spam.
Unsubscribe if you no longer want to receive them.
It is clueless people indiscriminately tagging everything as spam that has helped to create the ever-increasing problems with email deliverability rates.
If you opted in it is NOT spam! Take some responsibility (unsubscribe) and quit contributing to the problem.
Russells last blog post..Reciprocal Linking How To Go About It
I don't even think about tagging an email I subscribed to as spam - and I hope no one got this impression.
I know that a huge percentage of AOL users use the spam button as an unsubscribe tool - which is totally wrong.
I don't know anyone in the business who sends without an unsubscribe link at the bottom - although I still get people emailing me to do it for them, too!
You are SO on the mark! I did just that yesterday when I started getting bombarded with Stompernet hype. Those that asked why, I replied that I was obviously not in their target market - even if I were making 10,000 per month, I am not so brain-dead as to pay nearly a thou a month for ANYTHING!
I've been watching the SN videos since they began promoting them a couple of weeks ago and have tremendous respect for Brad and Andy for the quality of their work, but most of the 'gurus' (and I use that term with tongue in cheek) just came across as greedy (Probably looking for a hefty monthly residual.)
A couple of promoters were actually honest in their sales letters announcing in the very beginning that it probably wasn't something most of their readers needed or could afford - those I remained with. But the others are now gone from my inbox. :)
I'm happy to see that I wasn't alone in reacting the way I did.
Thanks for a great post!
Tom
I have losta lot of respect for many so called gurus who offer several programmes per week to their list. Lets really change the face of email marketing by spreading the word that it is unacceptable and get some sanity back. How abouta name and shame website, when they get hit by massive unsubscribes only then will they see the error of their ways.
I wouldn't normally butt in but it was just such misguided advice. And if others don't know NEVER to do this then they need to be told.
On another note - My impossible wish would be for a small group of us to compile a master list of those markters lists which are 1) Can't miss/must subscribe, and 2) Junk - unsubscribe as fast as possible.
Opinions would vary so widely as to make it nearly impossible for any real consesus...but it sure would be fun to look at such a list!
Russells last blog post..Combat Stress Safely Through Herbal Treatment
Of course not! If there's an unsubscribe link (that actually works), I use it. But you'd be amazed at how often this vital link is missing or broken.
My suggestion about the Report Spam button has more to do with real spam than with responsible mailing lists. I've been online for over 15 years and spambots have found virtually every email address I have. So I get 200-500 spams a day, despite multiple filtering systems.
I forward everything to a gmail account so I don't have to spend all day checking multiple mailboxes. I still know which email addy any given message came from...
Alison
Thanks for adding the "do not mark as spam" - it was very helpfu and much appreciated.
A "clean list" of who's good and who's not is a utopian visionary idea - I WISH it were possible but in my "small government - free market" world view, the moment you start something like this, new problems are created.
Who runs the list? Criteria.
In this case - the market gets to decide and vote with their mouse.
As Paul Simon wrote:
"One man's ceiling is another man's floor"
Apartment House Blues
Anyway I do agree that the Stomper Net launch process is way overboard. I have been getting bombarded from the team at Stomper as well as some of their contacts in the industry to try this program out. Well one I can't afford the program and two after being told not to resubmit my site for their Stomper Site Seer report on the page that you sign up on I finally received an e mail telling me to re submit my site after initially submitting it. When I got my e mail telling me my report was ready the link took me to a page on the Stomper Site that said sorry invalid request.
So I am wondering who else out there has had this problem. To me this is just bad business to offer this for free and then not test your delivery method to make sure everyone can get the free product your offering.
It has certainly de railed me from ever getting in on this program.
When I say I am offering something for free I don't result to black hat tactics that make my free products look shifty. I really get irritated with sales letters that mask the word free like f.r.e.e or f ree to me that doesn't make the company pushing the product look like anything but a bunch of second rate hacks that have an 8th grade education.
While I am not a Guru per se in the industry my site does well enough in it's own right and I am happy with the direction it is going.
Joe Cherays last blog post..How to Market Yourself for Free via The Net
Joe Cherays last blog post..How to Market Yourself for Free via The Net
There will be plenty of fun - free drinks - and snacks and laughter!
Rick
My takeaway from your post -- clean up the mailbox. It's not about StomperNet, it's about list abuse. It won't be tough to clean out at least half of my guru's today!
Gave you a Digg to spread this valuable conversation.
Hey, I'm all for marketing. I love marketing.
Butt...
I hate when people abuse and waste my time.
Then, they get ousted from my "Circle of Trust"
"You tried to milk him, didn't you you sick son of a bitch?" Jack Byrnes
Thanks for the heads up and for posting stuff like this, it helps a lot and in this case really opens the eyes!
I've got my two or three mentors. I keep the rest of the newsletters for trend following. Since reducing my devotion to two or three successful people, I've seen my progress grow by leaps and bounds.
It's because I'm not trying to be like everyone else. I'm trying to adopt the mind of a successful person. Two or three will give you the conglomerate attitude you need to beget thoughts and plans to carry out what we're all after in life.
It doesn't mean, like most people think, that I'm missing out on other people's expertise.
I read Rick Butts all the time!
Christopher Floress last blog post..How To Build Your Life And Business Like A 92,000 Ton War Machine!
Sifting thru the hype and getting to substantial info can be a big time waster.
Quite some time back I unsubscribed to 95% of the lists I was on and just stuck with the non-hypers. Like Sir Butts here...
Lorraine Grulas last blog post..Video Production Tips special offer
This ebook was a great read. I unsubscribed from emails back in January when my inbox got bombarded with the huge promotion then. What set me off was people were just sending out the same affiliate email. Not changing a word of it.... so, I kept seeing the same email over and over again. Most didn't even change the headline.
It's not that difficult to customize an email. They showed how much they cared about their list...
Keith Goodrums last blog post..“Gurus” vs. “DoRus” How To Get The Cure…
Great post! I get tired of the guru promo train. Too much posing in many cases. I am not opposed to launches, hell, I enjoy seeing the process (anyone seeing Indiana Jones this weekend? Now that's a product launch!) but there does seem to be an undertone of sliminess to they way they all seem to jump in bed with each other on everything.
It was info overload x100. I advised them to do three things...
I suggested that Stompernet model a real university. To set up an interview process with an administrator and series of tests, to determine what level of courses ie: PPC 101, SEO 301, Copywriting 402, etc, that each new customer should start at.
I told them to set up coaching with an assigned mentor or teaching assistant. People don't want to be pushed information that they don't need, or that doesn't apply to their business model. They need personal time on the phone with a coach.
Finally I suggested something like a "call in radio show" over the internet, where customers could have access to a panel of gurus on a daily, or at least weekly basis. People need just-in-time answers, immediate solutions to problems they may be experiencing today.
Stompernet... it's been over a year, so here's my last piece of advice. Stop the launches before you irreparably damage your reputation. Just open the doors already.
If you were to focus your energy on setting up a proper curriculum, you would retain your membership through sequential selling, instead of having this continual "grand reopening" binge and purge of your membership. You can only hit the "panic button" or the adrenalin gland so many times before it stops working.
I hope that you eventually realize, that by opening the doors and leaving them open - like a real university - and offering a sequential program, you wouldn't have to lose credibility with these undignified launches.
You could continually replace the membership you lose through attrition, with a standard affiliate program and a constant stream of advertising from your affiliates, who believe in the faculty, the staff, the training, the institution and its history of success, instead of...
All units must be sold! Panic button + direct response + scarcity + urgency + all 2008 models must go + we'll throw in bonus tires + hot dogs AND rides for the kids! Just look for the giant pink inflatable gorilla on the roof...
My friends - inside Stompernet - each and every one of you, are way, way, better than this, you know you are! I know you. I coached many of you in your early years and launched several of your careers. You are very smart individuals, but your marketing model stinks and it's undignified. (In my humble opinion.)
Trust me Stompernet, the time to manage your reputation is now. Just open the doors already and model a real university... because if people start doing what I've already done - unsubscribe from all the direct marketers - who will hear the noise?
The latest Indiana Jones movie just opened and there was only one advertisement for it.
Oh, wait, there were a BILLION ads for it. Billboards, commercials, newspaper ads, etc. All from people who (probably) hadn't seen the movie.
Are you going to stop watching TV, or reading the paper, or looking at billboards? Probably not.
Promoting something you haven't used is EXACTLY the same. I think in general you can get a better response and gain more credibility if you can give a review rather than just a promo, but promos in and of themselves are not evil.
Besides, someone who is very good at a specific task can usually look at something and determine, based on their experience, whether the given method can give the desired results. I don't have to try every step of a Learn to Juggle course to be able to legitimately recommend it -- and I'm sure it's the same with some people and marketing subjects.
A promo is an ad, that's all. When new things come out, whether online or in the real world, there's a big advertising blitz.
Jay Jennings
Jay Jenningss last blog post..What’s Your SPH? (Spam Per Hour)
Interesting opinion, I generally ignore all of the high ticket items unless it's something that has excited / interested me during the pre-launch stage.
If I was to buy something everytime I got an email I would have gone bust long ago, and I've already got hundreds of DVD's that I need to work my way through.
Andrew
Thanks to Rick for bringing it up. I agree with him. Lots of marketers write their sales letters in an disingenuous way which makes it sound like they know for sure the product they are endorsing indeed works. How would they know if they haven't used it? They don't. But that doesn't stop them from assuring their trusty list that it's worth the $$$$.
Michael Campbell wrote a spot-on analysis said and agree with him 100%. Personal one-on-one is the most helpful thing. For which, I hired none other than Rick Butts!
I was a member of Stompernet for a while but could not justify the $800/month. I don't care how good the information is, that's not affordable to anyone unless they're making a bundle.
To Jay Jennings post above, I would say that an endorsement is different from a promo. An endorsement implies personal knowledge and belief in a product. That is much different from a promo or ad that is inherently positive and obviously produced by the people who want you to try their product. An endorsement has an element of trust to it not found with an advertisement.
Lorraine Grulas last blog post..Video Production Tips special offer
Better advice would be to unsubscribe from people who never send you anything but swipe files. Because that's what you *really* mean, right?
I had to laugh a little about "affiliates who mail without knowing the product." While that's true of any affiliate program, it was especially amusing given what followed.
Michael Campbell mailed his list with his Stompernet affiliate link less than 2 weeks ago, but his comments on your other post clearly indicate that he's not aware of what we do...
While his 'suggestions' are interesting, we're already doing almost all of that. We have personal coaching for all members, we have 4 'faculty office hour' calls each week (holidays like Memorial Day reduce this to 3), and the recent SMARTS course was very much like (more than) what he suggests for organizing the curriculum.
Dan Thies, Stompernet faculty
Dan Thiess last blog post..Want To Work 1 on 1 With Me? Stompernet coaching opens today!
Thanks for confirming it isn't just me having these kinds of thoughts about product launch tactics. Every time I get another email that says..."oops, our server crashed" I always think, if you're so darned good at this how come you didn't plan for the obvious. Who in their right mind would want to "study" or "purchase" from someone who claims to be an expert worth hundreds of thousands of dollars an hour to consult with yet doesn't manage to get the basics done right. Just my two cents from the outside!
Linda
"Rick, I'm not sure why you decided to single out one organization, but you have your own reasons or agenda I'm sure."
Hey Dan - I love your work and have a tremendous amount of respect for you - along with the entire Stompernet faculty!
Two reasons (no agenda)
1. I'm commenting on the most recent thing to happen in my own email Inbox - it could have gone down on any of a number of weeks for any number of launch blasts. Internet marketing is a moving parade and Stompernet just happened to be the float in front of my view this week.
2. The launch thing has just gotten worse over the last year - and it seems beneath Stompernet's values and ethics to choose to squeeze the market this way - for a high-value BRAND that has been in the marketplace for a year and a half?
I'm all for an Indiana Jones campaign, as one commenter tried to make a comparison for, but StomperU is not a 120 minute "event" - it is a 365 Days a Year business.
While working with Brian Tracy several years ago - I remember he once said that a blindspot companies make is believing that "a group of smart people can't make a bad decision."
Regardless of the revenue spike, this was, in my humble but accurate opinion IMHBAO, a bad decision.
Perhaps it's time to stop defending and start listening?
Once again - these comments are in no way meant to defame an excellent product or the people who create it!
Respectfully, Rick Butts
My comments on why we chose to do a launch process this time, instead of just opening the doors and leaving them open, are awaiting moderation over @ Nate's blog (http://nathananderson.us/ar/45).
But there are good reasons why we did it, including the ability to show people "results in advance" by giving away good instruction.
It's unlikely that Stompernet's 'full membership' coaching program will see another 'product launch.' Most of our courses will still need to be sold all at once, for the same reason that colleges don't want people to register for a class in the middle of a semester.
We're not just selling a 'box of DVDs' here. There is a lot of value in bringing a group of people in together, and working with them as they go through a training program.
If you just throw the doors open, you can't have a free seminar at the end of the course, you can't have a weekly lecture/webinar, you can't hand out assignments and get the peer review & support unless the students are all on the same week of the program.
But you were really talking about the noise in the market, from our affiliates, right?
Maybe you have a different perspective than I do, because outside of people who actually contribute to Stompernet, I've only seen two marketers mail affiliate links in the past month - Michael Campbell and David Bass. (Yes, Michael's excellent newsletter is on your unsubscribe list!)
Now, I know that we have a lot of affiliates, so someone who subscribes to everything is probably being whipped to death by affiliate promotions, not just ours. It's just that, when you are as good at this as we are, everyone seems to want a piece.
We don't have final results yet, but it looks 9 out of the top 10 affiliates will turn out to be people who play a large role in our community - as faculty, members, etc.
Not doing launches won't stop the people who will mail anything that can make them a buck. The only way to do that is to have an invitation-only affiliate program, a subject that's sure to come up internally after this launch.
For anyone here who thinks that our launch was an exercise in 'false scarcity,' I don't know what to say.
If you've never tried to actually *do* personal coaching, 1:1 support from instructors, and all that stuff at this at scale, it's probably hard to understand that there are real limits on the number of people we can support.
I'd like to think that we did this launch the "right way" from our side - lots of meaty free content, a free tool that everyone can use, case studies, and a lot of detail on what we do.
But maybe you're right, Rick - maybe it doesn't matter how well we do it, if too many people are talking about it from the biased perspective of an affiliate.
Worth talking and thinking about. :D
Dan Thiess last blog post..Want To Work 1 on 1 With Me? Stompernet coaching opens today!
Ryan Healys last blog post..Is LifeLock Selling a Lie?
I just wanted to publicly thank you for continuing this conversation.
Although it was not my intent to walk up to the biggest bully on the block (Stomper) and kick him in the balls like you did, it seems that my suspicion and estimation of how raw the market is with the entire launch bullshit was dead on.
http://rickbutts.com/cure
Scott Boulch
DoRu
Man, this has sparked some debate... kudos!
I think the noise is loud and it's time we turn down the music. I've contributed heavily to this noise over the years and have been evaluating my business as of late.
Launches are a part of marketing and have their place. I also find many good marketing strategies in the very emails from the same people that send a lot of spam.
I have unsubscribed from those that provide no value.
I also see that the art of relationship building has been lost and is finally on the return.
Keith
and you created a post about it - NUTS man.
GREAT post and I'm glad you were on the call. Looking forward to chatting more bro!!
Alejandro Reyess last blog post..Influencing Social Networking Sites
And found myself totally sucked in, read the whole thing word for word, even tweeting some of my favorite choice lines.
Scott & Keith outdid themselves with this one, and it gelled perfectly with what Alejandro & I spoke on during our teleseminar (which I also thank you for bringing to your blog readers).
PLF made me a lot of money. I still love the product, but I've never done a "internet marketing" launch with the PLF formula because of the vehemence with which people react to these huge crash and burn launches.
A good product will gain market traction without the overinflated and broken promises so common today in our industry's launch cycle.
Michelle MacPhearsons last blog post..Big Flippin Deal - Thurs 8pm EST
I'm assuming that the more revenue Stomper generates, the more they get paid. It doesn't matter who brings in the new members. As stomper revenue increases so does "Brandy's" paychecks. Anyone else working for stomper with the same financial arrangement should not also be affiliates...that is where a conflict of interest comes into play.
Anyone profit-sharing Stomper revenue who encourages buyers to clear their cookies would be engaging in affiliate theft - or more accurately denying affiliates of their earned commissions.
Russells last blog post..Preview Teleseminars Avoid These Off-Putting Mistakes
If a user clears all cookies and then click a new affiliate link - the credit goes to the new referrer - and the original referrer doesn't get credit.
It is a whole lot easier to not use a "first cookie" setup but to use a "last cookie" meaning the latest cookie replaces any old ones and the last affiliate link you follow gets credit for your purchase.
I could be wrong but I don't think 1ShoppingCart.com even allows a 1st cookie setup, and since most IMers use 1SC the point is moot.
I do happen to know that Colin "Google" McDougall aka: Bull in a China Shop of Vancouver Canada - goes through incredibly sophisticated hoops to segment his affiliates into separate autoresponders so that on all follow ups the original affiliate referral does get credit for the sale.
I won't reveal his method for doin this but since it is not cookie based - it is a very powerful and ethical way to honor the people who send him traffic - so that they get paid for bringing a customer to him - and not get cheated out of a commission while he follows up with them directly.
To both Dan Theis and Colin, two people I really respect, I ask that you both ease up on aggressive language.
This has been a pretty decent and informative conversation so far - and one that has been of benefit to my readers - for whom I'm working
Rick Butts
First of all I want to publicly apologize for the perception of "taking down StomperNet" from Dan's comment...
Dan, I posted some stuff on my blog that I am VERY embarrassed about back in November...
Let's clear the air on that first of all
Folks, NEVER post to your blog when your emotions are not in a logical and rational place...
I was reading through some email's from my members that were ex-stompers....
I had an error in thinking...
I knew the SMARTS launch was about to happen so....I used some testimonials as inspiration for some posts I wrote from a VERY emotional place....
You see, while presenting at an industry event I received a phone call from home that my beloved father had been diagnosed with Leukemia...
My apologies,
Colin
This was not a "first cookie wins" offer. You can't do that if you're going to allow affiliates to offer bonuses for signing up through their link.
There was, in fact, no good reason for an affiliate to ask people to clear cookies before clicking their affiliate link, but clearing cookies would have NO EFFECT anyway - once that affiliate's link was clicked, the cookie would have been updated.
In our last launch (SMARTS) we didn't allow bonuses, and in fact captured affiliate's IDs in the opt-in record so that we could mail *their* affiliate links from our own autoresponder. We even let affiliates set a cookie with a video player embedded on their own sites.
Colin says that "insiders" get to mail last, which is also complete nonsense. Any affiliate can mail whenever they choose to, and "insiders" get the same affiliate emails from Stompernet that everyone else does.
The fact that this particular affiliate mailed fairly late is due to his own situation & travel. If people decided to buy from him to get the bonuses that he offered at his own expense, that's their business.
Every affiliate has been able to see the 'scoreboard' in the affiliate emails, we even ran a scoreboard on opt-ins well before the launch. My name was on there, as were several other faculty members. None of our affiliates have objected to faculty members mailing as affiliates during any of our past launches.
Colin isn't even an affiliate as far as I know, so it's hard to understand what his point is, other than self-promotion, and trying to drag a competitor's name through the mud. He has been given the facts, and he has chosen to continue with these statements in spite of the facts.
@Russell, I don't know why the means used to compensate faculty members for the work that they do would create a "conflct of interest," since their interest in any case is to get people signed up.
I do know that if Ed Dale had to choose between participating as faculty and mailing as an affiliate, there would be a strong financial incentive for him to stop helping our members and be "just an affiliate."
Excluding faculty, Stompernet members, or other contributors from the affiliate program would absolutely create a conflict of interest that would work against the interests of our members. So, we're not interested in doing that, and there is no reason to do so, because of the following simple fact.
"Insiders" do not have any special advantage as affiliates, except for the credibility that comes from being part of our stellar faculty, along with the perspective and internet marketing skill that comes from being a member and participating in our training and coaching.
That's the truth.
I am thrilled at the volume of discussion here but I will not allow any more comments that fuss at Stompernet.
The title of my post mentioned Stompernet Launch emails ONLY AS AN EXAMPLE - because that was happening on the day I wrote the article.
It could just have easily been ________ (you name the launch.)
The POINT here is about YOU, as an individual entrepreneur, eliminating distractions and getting down to work and choosing content carefully.
The worst thing any of us can actually say about the Stompernet people is that they have produced more excellent training, tools, than anyone else online!
8-)
I will delete any further posts that take personal shots here.
Let's all get back to work - and focus on the positive! 8-)
Rick
Thanks for being so true about hypey mega product launches. I'm still subscribed to some of them using another less used email addie just to see what's going on in the IM world.
Just to keep myself up to date you see. But I must admit that sometimes they distract me as well :P
Anyway thanks once again for speaking your mind and I agree 100% with you!
Cheers.
Wellys last blog post..Lowongan Kerja - Freelance Content Writer Untuk Blog
The panic button and adrenaline thing...wow! That single idea is the best way to sum up the whole thing in a nutshell.
re: News and overload
I watch Comedy Central's Daily Show and Steven Colbert more than CNN. Why? Because the news is so damn depressing I'd rather have someone give me the headlines with a laugh than watch straight news with no chaser.
Rick is my Colbert. You get the "news" but with inspired commentary rather than regurgitated, recommended affiliate information.
I am taking all the credit for it too. Simply because Rick asked what I thought before he "launched" this blog and I agreed, which, I am positive, is the whole reason this blog is here today. :)
What Rick said, let's get back to work...
We are all way too busy for this...
I am in no way calling into question the value Stomper delivers to customers....
Dan, Andy, Brad et al....
Do not take any of the discussions here as a slam.
Do consider this an opportunity for improvement...
I will contact you within the next few weeks to have an offline discussion about my rant...
BTW, I have removed the post on my blog...
Let's get back to work...When the dust settles we will talk...
My friends at Stomper.... Once again, I have the utmost respect for you folks....Social proof was not written on my blog as a direct result of friendships I have with some of your faculty members... Please guys, consider what I have said as an opportunity for improvement...This industry sometimes gets a bad name and it IS this industry that is my passion in life.... I don't think you intentionally set out to do wrong...Anyway...
Cheers to all following this thread, now get back to work....
Talk soon....
Colin
Davion | Learn To Make Real Money Onlines last blog post..Free Keyword Competition Analyzers To Measure And Analyze Keyword Competition
I agree with the "adrenaline rush and info overload" reference made in this thread... My psychiatrist actually thought I was Manic Depressive!
I'm new to marketing and promotion and I'm sick and tired of all the hype. But I will have to admit that some of the content that I receive is valuable, I find it sometimes difficult to decypher the information and put into bite size pieces that I can understand and then apply.
But unfortunately I have to go the free way instead of the paid way, and some of the things I have seen sound good but the price tags are enormous.
I too got caught up listening to the Stompernet Crew. Good on the videos and audios, (which by the way s what I'm learning) but come on now, if there first to market and it's never been seen before, where do they get all these testimonials.
Wouldn't you have to see proven results from customers in order to have testimonials?
I believe in content by all means, but make it worth something to the customer, what are they going to get out of it instead of the guru.
Where did they come up with that name "guru" anyway.
Tim
That was all very interesting indeed.
Not sure whether to open my mouth or keep it shut.
Lots of comments here from people I have learned from and some friends too.
The first couple of launches that I experienced were 'very exciting' and had me twisting and turning in my sleep as it were.
Now I see them coming and even if the freeline stuff is good I now find the whole process incredibly boring and predictable. Servers always crashing! etc
It takes a while in this world to develop the criteria necessary to be able to choose wisely whom to follow and learn from.
My list would have six to ten people on it as my main sources of learning with three or four of them at the core.
Somebody said something about making a list...
Best,
George
Normally I don't even read all your stuff only because it is SO MUCH already, but I like the doru's and I do like some of your posts. You're a real dude. Anyway, enough but I'd like to say this . . .
Launches are necessary to get your product out but it's the "good ol boy" mentality and ad nauseum promotion from EVERY FRIGGIN marketer out there that get's me.
What I like about Frank Kerns as well as the stomper boys fallon and jenkins is that they at least give you lots of CONTENT for free and if you study the FREE stuff you get so much that you can implement it, see if it works and go from there. Most online entrepreneurs should, and I hope recognize that.
However I read a post above from the ex faculty dude and I agree that they need to set it up better, meaning the stomper boys, because for the normal human entrepreneur, it is just so much that even a quarter of the membership can be so overwhelming.
I'm not stomping them though and I love to receive that stuff from them. I mean just look at how they create the VIDEOS!! That in itself is so wonderful to learn from . . . I know that I have and have things like that in the works too.
Anyway, thanks Rick for starting the controversy here and keep it coming too. It is good to purge the over done launches but launches are part of everything. If there is no noise about your product who the hecks gonna know?
Just MHO, that's all. Thanks bro and saying HI to all the people I know who posted here and there are quite few.
Peace and Love - Jorge
I'm sure there have been several bank tellers, who are handling large deposits from these Stompernet promoters the past week or so, who are asking, "Hey - wait a minute. This isn't Stompernet money is it? We can't accept money from that."
In other words, they are laughing all the way to the bank.
-roll eyes-
Today I counted no less than 15 emails from 15 different marketers all touting the "DIY Minisite Kit" Volume 2. While I blame nobody but myself from subscribing to these marketers I do sometimes wonder how I did. Then it hit me. Its those flaming "giveaways" where you have to opt in to receive a free gift.
Recently I purchased Joe Vitale's book "Zero Limits", and after reading "The Internet Marketing Cure" I'm doing a 'Hooponopono' (Joe's book explains this) on my subscription list: Clean, clean, clean.
I've done business with a lot of marketers and I know whom I can trust and those I know I can't (bad help desks etc etc), so at the moment I'm creating a list of the trusted marketers who I know I can happily deal with in the future. To all others I've subscribed to its bye-bye.
in the meant time I've got a niche to service and hopefully the email distractions will lessen.
Regards
Bob
BobWs last blog post..How are your little parasites doing today?
Nice to see a stack of quality participants in a quality discussion about the header that the IM niche has taken...
There is so much great insight and opinion in the
Internet Marketing Cure... just a must-read for anyone even remotely thinking about getting involved. Thanks, Scott, for that piece of work.
And thanks, Rick, for stating what should be the obvious by now:
This Marketers-who-market-to-marketers thing has gotten shamelessly ridiculous. The Pre-launch/Launch/Post-Launch
pounding that occurs for nearly everything is already burning itself out.
We even had a massive Pre-Launch Hype Machine go down for a product that teaches you how to have a massive Pre-Launch Hype Machine.
It's like a cash-sucking, ATM machine, bank account-exploding salesletter that sells you a product to show you how to write cash-sucking ATM machine, bank account-exploding salesletters....
This whole incestuous niche has dazzled and smoke-and-mirrored and exaggerated and sensationalized and idolized and pedestalized until there is no sense of reality anymore.
There may not even BE a reality.
Honestly, the time is long overdue to take a step back and re-evaluate what is going on in this war-torn niche--
ny suggestion, as a place for the relatively uninitiated to start, is to:
Make sure you are thinking like a Marketer and not thinking like a Mark.
All this overblown sensationalism that hits you from every angle is a good study, as long as you are looking to learn from it and don't get too emotionally involved (as in pull out your WALLET on auto-pilot).
Each of us know where our level of integrity will allow us to go. If you feel that someone has crossed a line in their marketing practices , cut 'em loose. You aren't going to miss much by being on six lists instead of forty.
Choose the voices you let in wisely.
Learn from those who resonate with your own set of values.
Let someone else Overhype and Underdeliver....
You got your own style.
Keith deBolt
MarketingStep1.com
Not my newest post, but one of the many relevant ones:
http://marketingstep1.com/another-product-launch/
Really, I hate to pile on, but how could anyone think that it was a good idea to open up today for an hour?
I've tried to defer any harsh thoughts toward SN during this conversation - but...
The pure hubris of this organization ignoring time zones, and people's schedules was the height of business-egotism.
Seriously, could there have been a bigger clue that they think the target customers they are looking to sell to - are that stupid?
Rick
Start marketing to customers, not to each other.
That is incest at its best !
Adios!
"Plus cela change, plus cela reste la même chose"
- Alphonse Karr (1808-90)
( translation: "The more things change, the more they remain the same." )
Oh sorry, I'm on the "wrong" blog...
I thought this was a discussion about the state of the network marketing industry.
And now, something completely "different"...
Anything new under the sun ? ;O)
"
Good point, Tim. I have noticed that you can go to several sites selling different ebooks etc with the same "testimonials" staring back at you. I think there must be a 'testimonial market' out there. It could be more lucrative than selling ebooks etc.
"Where did they come up with that name "guru" anyway."
Probably the same place where all those "secret" methods, formulas, and what-have-you come from. I've bought several must-have 'secret' stuff ebooks only to find that the 'secret' was often let out of the bag ages ago.
If the trend for marketers to sell to marketers is going to continue, I'd like to see more non-IM niche material, than the same old stuff re-hashed ad nauseum.
I have noticed that some of the rehashing is now put to audio and video. While that might be a trend as well, I don't know if everyone agrees with paying for online streaming media.
Personally I'd rather download the stuff and burn it to a dvd or cd for offline use. The other thing with downloading the media means that if the vendor goes belly up you still have the goods you paid for. This is probably off topic, but something these 'gurus' should consider.
Probably why IM niche works so well for some is that gullible noobs (I'm one) are hungry for information. At $7.00 a pop that's not too bad a price but the super hypey expensive ones are just downright silly.
Keith says it right:
"This Marketers-who-market-to-marketers thing has gotten shamelessly ridiculous. The Pre-launch/Launch/Post-Launch
pounding that occurs for nearly everything is already burning itself out.
We even had a massive Pre-Launch Hype Machine go down for a product that teaches you how to have a massive Pre-Launch Hype Machine.
It's like a cash-sucking, ATM machine, bank account-exploding salesletter that sells you a product to show you how to write cash-sucking ATM machine, bank account-exploding salesletters…."
BobWs last blog post..How are your little parasites doing today?
I'm still subscribed to Scott's list, so I did read his email this morning which directed me here.
I got totally brassed off with all this "mining the miners" at the Mass Control launch. I characterised it as "Diarrhoea Out of Control" marketing. Now I discover that the "Digital" Ebola virus was the underlying cause!
I was also brassed off with Stompernet's part in the email blasts, which I mentioned (very politely) in a comment to one of Brad's videos on YouTube. Rather than addressing the criticism that comment was deleted.
Such treatment led me to conclude that I didn't want the Stompers to have any more of my money so I resigned from Stompernet (my Simple membership that is, not the emails). It seems that Stomper "customer services" ignored that request. I know I really should check my credit card statements and my spam folder more carefully, but it seems they're still charging me, and I'm still a member. Lucky old me!
Continuity programs at their best?
Cheers!
Jim
Jim Hunts last blog post..An Irresistible Offer from Mark Joyner?
I am now almost innoculated against the BS and really buy very little now. I also refuse to pay $1000 for anything, nothing is worth that. I detest the 2 ton of video, books, scripts etc. that they want to send you.
Seriously, who has the time to check out all the forums you should track, the ebooks you should read, the videos you should watch and still produce your own original products, write an article a day, monitor and track your adwords campaigns, manage your split tests and rewrite your headlines and web pages for optimising for search and maximising your CTR and ROI.
I gotta tell you, I'm just exhausted by it all so the 'Cure' was a breath of fresh air and so empowering. Thanks to you all.
Regards
I agree. I even registered a domain, to write a similar report and....Scott beat me to it with a BETTER report.
Few Points...
ONE
It's not always the product launched....but those that they JV with.
TWO
It's when they get lazy,....and most of them are....and send "canned emails" that I get really mad.
I see Lisa Preston posted above so let me encourage those of you who worry about spending the time building a relationship form her example.
In Nov 2005 she promoted a Set of Self Hypnosis CDs with Resell Rights of mine.
She sold 63 sets(from memory) at $397 each with what I believe was a list of about 8,000.
A guru - not so much in the crowd critcised here - but still a guru - had a list of 500,000(or so he said) - and he sold 6.
You do the maths.....a list about 1/8 the size sells more than 10 x as much.
Now back then I believe Lisa was personally contacting all new signups. Not customers or affiliates - but simple signups. She would see where they lived....and write what was obviously a personal message related to where they lived....and she was doing this years ago.
I wish I had follwoed her example!
Anyway - my point is - relationship counts.....and yes...relationship sells too.
THREE
We must never forget - nobody holds a gun to our heads. We don't have to stay on their list and we don't have to buy.
So the real enemy is within, which of course marketers like politicians are reluctant to say for fear of upsetting their customers and prospects.
We seem to have this insatiable desire.....not to miss out. It's like a ringing phone....it doesn't matter what we are doing....we HAVE to find out what or who it is!
A few monsth back I reduced my emails to 12 form about 70.
So my advice...select a few people you trust....and ignore the rest. There is too much opportunity out there to worry about missing out on the "latest greatest" thing.
So well done Rick and Scott...
Andy Clarke
If I don't like watching advertisements I switch off the TV. I don't place an advert in the paper trashing the product. If you indiscriminately sign up to newsletters don't trash the product they promote. By all means unsubscribe from whatever newsletter you want but don't bash a product which can only be faulted in one way, and that is that it has too much content.
Some of you moan about faculty members promoting the product but then in the same breath ask if they know or tested the product they're recommending. Obviously if you're a faculty member you know everything about the product.
Please Rick, you've made some legitimate points about some marketers not using newsletters to give content but only to market, but don't let this degrade into a flame Stomper contest! That's not the style I've gotten accustomed to from you.
Fact : 98% internet marketers earn less than 500/month .
And most lose tons of money on wasted courses and seminars
chasing what they believe to be easy millions.
Personally I stopped wasting my time and money in promoting
affiliate marketing about 2 years ago.
Its too hard, not a dependable source of income and the
competition is getting tougher.
Then there are products and services you should not promote
because you are destined to lose most if not all your
commissions.
Its a tough learning curve. And even then its a bigger pain
to make it work.
I found an alternative source of income and its passive income.
Its about investing like the pro’s to make consistent money
from ‘under the radar’ investing alerts and opportunities
without spending hours on all the mind numbing research .
Its done for you by 21 teams of private analysts teams with
158 staff to research and analyse the best opportunities that 99% of the investment crowd don’t have access to.
There are short term, long term investment and also trading
opportunities to make monthly income too with 80% winners.
you can make 30%-50% annual to 100%- 400% annually from
investment opportunities.
Plus also 30-50% monthly from trading alerts from top grade
private analysts, you won’t have access to any other way.
If anyone wants to become a member email me for more
info .... jeffmiles1968 @ yahoo.com
The case studies are from real members. Stompernet's coaching program has been operating since November 2006, we invited people in again in May 2007, and then again over the last week.
Prior to opening Stompernet, Brad and Andy ran two very successful coaching programs with smaller groups of 60 or so people.
So, having real customers is how you get real case studies from real customers. I'm not a lawyer, but I think making up case studies and testimonials is a crime in these United States.
I'm sorry if the SEO and PPC instruction we gave in our videos didn't satisfy you, but it did help a lot of people.
@Rick, you've lost me, friend. Joining our program is a major decision and commitment, not just financially but time wise. The people who joined yesterday were apparently quite happy that they have a second chance.
Excuse us for not staying open longer, but we were trying to make up for duplicate orders, so that we could close the doors and get back to work. Mission accomplished.
If you can explain how to stay open for a few hours *and* cover every time zone, and the explanation doesn't involve a 'flux capacitor,' I'd love to hear it.
@Scott, our launch was quite successful. We didn't know what to expect, with the long weekend and everything else working against us.
The winner of our office pool guessed about 200 members below the final number. All of our fast action bonuses were sold last week. That's as close as I'll get to announcing how many members joined us, how many we have, etc.
I'm sorry that you hacked into our system so early in the SMARTS course... but I'm glad you decided not to steal the entire thing - that's real honest of you. I'm not sure why some people think you can teach something without laying a foundation first.
Dan Thiess last blog post..Dayparting Ain't So Tough - How To Start Simple
But couple of months ago, during the series of launches, my inbox go flooded with lots of email with their promotions.
I already downloaded Scott's report and I must again start unsubscribing to most of them. This report has reminded me again to have my focus back and concentrate on what well give me long term benefits.
Dantes last blog post..Why Set Up Membership Sites? Part I
119 comments to this post - it's starting to look like a forum!
I have unsubscribed from the "gurus" multiple times (including from all opt-ins and the main database) and STILL I am receiving countless messages from many of these folks. It's rather frustrating and further erodes my confidence in their backoffice systems.
My idea of unsubscribe is "no further contact ever, period". However, since it's not working as I'd hoped (and I've been monitoring this for about two years now), I'll be taking a different approach in future.
Marketing is inherently biased, skewed information designed to make you feel positive about the product. Marketing copy might not contain any real "truth." Manipulated spin with a grain of truth does not count as truth in my book but for marketers and advertisers, such a a minuscule grain is enough to proclaim a pile of hype as gospel.
CONTENT, a word thrown around too liberally in internet marketing imho, SHOULD mean unbiased, factual, non-emotional, information designed to further the reader's understanding of the subject. This is what people are looking for. Quality, educational material that helps them know what to do.
Obviously, a marketing newsletter won't contain any good content since the two are incompatible by their definition. I have come to the conclusion that many marketers simply do not know how to provide quality content because they are ALWAYS in sales mode.
So people are looking for quality, non biased information from marketers. It is not going to happen. Just like Stephen King will never write a romance novel.
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Sharon Bray-McPherson
Thanks for the boost. Now I know that every business should plan accordingly but not to the point where they want to take everything out of the pockets of honest hard working people.
A matter of fact I myself do not ask anything of my customers except a name and email address and that they fill out a form to get there Free Download, it's that simple.
I like to keep things simple.
And I also believe that content is King! IF it is, then you will have a paying customer in the future should you plan (there's that word again) accordingly.
Besides my ethics and faith will not allow me to cheap, lie or steal from or too a customer. It's Just good business.
Tim
My appologizies, I was not trying to direct all of my concern upon the Stompernet Team, but in general.
In regards to: I'm sorry if the SEO and PPC instruction we gave in our videos didn't satisfy you, but it did help a lot of people.
I do not believe I mentioned anything concerning the matter or even direct that toward Stompernet.
I personally felt that the membership was very heafty for the average newbie. Thata all.
Tim
That is not to say that those products are bad. Some are crap and some are very good. Most all have a refund period.
I don't see what is wrong with selling tools to internet marketers or as Scott says, selling shovels to miners. People need these tools and information in order to succeed online. I really don't see what the point is. There are many opportunities in many niches to make money online and therefore many opportunities to sell tools and information to help those succeed. Many people get into selling internet marketing related material because they have not found a niche that they are passionate about and they are passionate about internet marketing because they are consumed with internet marketing at the time.
Product launches are great ways to launch a product and a business. It helps you create a buzz about your product and get people talking about it and have it because a community household name.
Scott talks about how he wrote this book for noble causes etc...but he really wrote it to create controversy to build his list and launch his relationshipincome.com product. Just like his first report about Adsense was to launch his clickflipping product.
Clickflipping used some of the same scarcity tactics, had a lot of people promoting it and was outrageously expensive for a product that wasn't very good and wasn't quite ready for launching. IF you look at alexa.com you'll see that clickflipping.com is ranked 1.2 million for the week and 745,000 overall which basically means that no one is using the product that cost $1000 to signup and then $300 monthly.
But I agree that in the future building relationships over hype is the way to go. But you also need to get the attention, as Rich Schfren says, and a great way to do that is product launches.
Adam
By the way, Timothy, and thanks for your comments: most of the testimonials you see for a "new" product come from one of two places:
1) The marketer's imagination (I'm sure it happens)
2) Private openings before the real launch, which allow the product developer to get feedback, make adjustments, and collect a few testimonials.
Dan Thiess last blog post..Dayparting Ain't So Tough - How To Start Simple
I love it when someone stands up to the BIG BOYS! I get so sick of all the emails promoting the next greatest BullS**T product. They don't answer their emails. They hide behind a "Support Desk" that they Outsourced to some "Flunkies" that doesn't know anything about internet marketing.
They pay thousands of dollars to make their sales pages so good and enticing that your mouth waters when you read it. Then, when you get the actual product, you are extremely disappointed as it's more re-hashed garbage! I've fell for that trap several times. It just infuriates me!
I try to stay informed on what's going on the internet by subscribing to many different lists. I just counted the folders I created for each "internet marketer", and I just realized that I'm on 117 email lists. And that's just internet marketers! I'm also on another 25 network marketers list.
It's no wonder I can't get anything done. I'm too busy reading my emails. I really only trust a few of them, and should "Un-subscribe" to the all the "Guru's" who hide behind a wall of people.
I like people like Frank Kern, Huey Lee, Jimmy D. Brown, Dave and Aaron, Kathe Lucas, Lisa Preston, Matt Haslem, Michelle MacPhearson, Perry Lawrence, Scott Boulch, Todd Gross, and Keith Baxter... just to name a few. There are others that I may have over looked... sorry.
At least I didn't tell who I think are a "worthless piece of sh@t". We all know who they are They are the one's that you can't reach.
Anyway, that's enough bashing on my part. I'm too busy building my own business, and helping others to build theirs, to worry about all the stupid fracking products launches. (that for all you Battlestar Galactica fans)...
Dan Black
http://www.danblack.com
There were a lot of "hackers" in the program.
"You can’t fool all the people, not even most of the time. And people, once unfooled, talk about the experience." Seth Godin
I tried to get out of it, but I don't think I am getting a refund. One month is equal to more than EIGHT months of ASC (Authority Site Center) - a much better deal. ASC is a great value.
But I did what you suggested, Unsubbed from all except those that send me useful content - and already I am happier, with a less-cluttered inbox. I am on a low-fat guru-diet now.
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I've read the black book. Some interesting ideas, but you didn't invent social marketing any more than Don Crowther did. But only one of you is claiming to have done so, and it's not Don.
I have no doubt that Don has learned a lot of things from a lot of people. But just because you had a product on the market, that doesn't mean other people can't think, come up with their own way of thinking, apply decades of marketing experience, test different ideas, and synthesize something new.
Synthesis is an idea you should explore. Google "Bloom's Taxonomy" and that'll get you started.
I can remember back in 2001 when I published a book on SEO, a few people who had published stuff before I did wanted to lay claim to SEO, as if nobody else could ever have an original idea on the subject.
I haven't bought your program, but I doubt that it includes as much in-depth instruction as SMARTS. If you think it's about linking, you're way off the mark. If you think it's all "stolen" from you, you're delusional.
Beyond that, I'll let your words speak for themselves.
Rick, I am soooo looking forward to seeing you next week....
More posts to come regarding tons of responses here.
I must finish packing...
Flying out of Vancouver in the early hours of the morning...
Arrive in Chicago at about noonish EST. Anybody attending the System Seminar please come say hi to me :- )
Colin
What kind of new friends might I make if I showed up at The System - no, wait JV Alert?
I'll bet a nickel I won't have to pay for a single cocktail or meal?
LOL
Rick
My friend,
I really get that you are passionately involved in this discussion - and as long as you keep commenting - I'll keep approving them.
But, IMHBAO taking on Jack Humphrey on the subject of primacy for Social Marketing is not going to get you much credibility among my readers.
The majority of my readers are very knowledgeable in Social Marketing - and learned most of what works from Jack.
Someone DID invent Social Marketing - and from my seat at the big game, it was Jack Humphrey.
He is the Kleenex of Social Media and the undisputed authority on the subject.
IMHBAO
In My Humble But Accurate Opinion
Rick
I am not questioning whether Jack is an expert or a pioneer, that's sort of obvious. But he apparently wants to be the only voice in the field, and that's not going to happen for him.
The bitterness with which he attacks a competitor is shocking, but again, if you admire those qualities, it's up to you.
Here is a blog post from August 30, 2006 about Jupiter Media's "social marketing" service, which they had announced the day before and had certainly spent some time planning.
Jupiter's press release cites earlier work.
Here is the record from Domaintools showing that Jack registered his domain just a couple days later.
Most of the world actually thinks of it as Social Media Optimization, which is a term coined by Rohit Bhargava, as far as I know... which also happened before ASC was born.
You can doubt all you want. You haven't been inside. You DON'T know what you're talking about and I'm beginning to see that you don't know me at all.
"If you think it's about linking, you're way off the mark."
Good - you read the word linking and figure the training is about link building. I guess I need a big damn Emmy-winning video for you to understand anything about this topic.
"If you think it's all "stolen" from you, you're delusional."
Delusional is the man who thinks a great portion of the material a lot of gurus put out is original. They rip off ideas from all over the damn place.
I wouldn't have cared about SMARTS at all if it weren't POSITIONED as the first best finest damn social marketing training ever. They positioned it that way. They have to eat those words unless they expect all of us doing this long before them to just sit back and put up with all this "Almighty Savior" shit.
I'd have let it ride if it were positioned in any of 1000 different ways than the way it was. No, I'm sure nothing was "stolen" in the strictest sense. We all learn things and apply them and even make them into training sometimes.
Everyone is talking about stuff me and a few others were talking about when few people would listen (because they were doing all the Adsense crap trying to figure out why they weren't making anymore money).
Find me out there, ANYWHERE, claiming I invented social marketing. You won't. I'm not the guy you so desperately want to paint with that brush.
This is the only place I brought this up because I was tired of all the chest beating bullshit about something everyone was led to believe WAS invented by SMARTS people.
I didn't invent it, but neither the hell did they. Watch the videos again and see for yourself how they positioned all of it.
I don't have any more time for the this history lesson than a lauded Stomper Faculty Member should, so I'll sign off this one. My words here don't mean squat compared to my track record the last 10 years. (Google me before you reply to this or you'll keep embarrassing yourself.)
If you want to win this debate you're up against 10 years of impeccable credentials. I heard yours are pretty fine, or at least they were until I saw you getting into this mess.
Just remember, none of these people are pissed at ME. You won't find a single spec anywhere on the web containing the kind of venom spewing on this page about my products, services or reputation.
I've had 10 years to destroy my reputation and haven't managed to do it yet. Stomper is in danger of accomplishing the task in virtually no time at all.
I'm not the one on public trial here. Think about that before you tighten the noose even more by trying to act like somehow everyone else is a pile of scroungy infidels and that your position here is the solid one.
Dan, have I publicly stated that it was an absolute pleasure to speak with you on the phone yesterday!
Let's talk again soon...
OK, I am procrastinating on last minute travel busy stuff :- )
Colin
Nothing was stolen from you, Jack. I don't need to win a debate about that, Jack, because it's the truth.
You note that I haven't been inside ASC, and it's true. It also appears that you haven't been through the SMARTS course.
I think if we did swap logins, we'd both find that the other program is valuable, and that we have different takes on the best way to approach this stuff. We'd probably both learn something.
Maybe we won't agree on which of us provides the "best" training, but I have no doubt that ASC is providing excellent value.
No matter how valuable that program is, you're limited to 500 people according to your sales letter. That leaves a lot of room for someone to teach everyone else. Well, we've taught a couple thousand people, and we're not done.
It also looks like you're selling websites there, which is not really our thing, and I'm sure you'll continue to find plenty of customers as long as you keep creating raving fans.
The Going Natural 2 videos are still online, BTW. While they present social media marketing as an opportunity that very few people are aware of, and even fewer do well*, I don't remember anyone claiming that nobody was doing it.
* That's still true IMO, especially outside of the internet-marketing-seminar circuit. Most business owners haven't a clue.
Although I agree with you about the overkill with emails about the newest and "greatest" product launch; I must defend some of the people who did it. For one: Howie Schwartz. He just recently joined the faculty of Stomper Net and therefore was promoting it.
As I think you indicated; Howie Schwartz is someone you subscribe to. I do too!
I will admit product launches have gotten out of control; but they work for the big guys; I just need to find out how to work them for the little guys.
Carol Ann Wileys last blog post..Cruising into Retirement
TX 4 sending me this link.
OMG _ what FANTASTIC advice!
PS: I'm also hoping I'll be 1 of the 3 peeps
people continue subscribing to - (AKA - you! LOL)
as I employ the same principles u & I seem to agree on:
entertain, educate & capitivate with integrity & REAL business tips & THEN you'll attract clients who are
TRUE raving fans - instead of tricking peeps w/ a 30 min
commercial by tuning in to their ustream channel, etc.
Email 1: "We're open!"
Email 2: "The Server Crashed!! OMG!"
Email 3: "Ok we're back up and there are only 24 spots left!"
Email 4: "We're closed!!! Sold Out!"
Email 5: [ Explanation about overwhelming traffic and how it broke the servers ]
Email 6: [The 'Honesty Email'] "Ok just to show you how honest we are we're going to admit that 94 people have quit Stompernet and these spots are NOW AVAILABLE!"
Email 7: "17 of Our New Servers Crashed!"
Email 8: "All spots are taken"
Email 9: "Our top Stomper just made $46,394 in the first 4 days alone, and he's blind!!"
Email 10: "Act fast there are 15 spots available"
Ad infinitum.
Bleh, it's all B.S. and Hexatrack is running the same launch model... LAME.
Where it gets crazy, and why people talk about it like we are here, is when a launch goes past critical mass to the point where some people feel like they're getting beaten over the head.
If you leave affiliates out of the picture, and just spend a little time getting feedback, getting people engaged, and building anticipation, you can make a big difference in your results.
I know online retailers who have used a launch type process with their existing customers before they added a new line of products, instead of just adding them to the store, and the gains were measurable as well as long lasting.
I dont' disLIKE anyone in IM - except for 2 guys who will never get any ink on this fine blog!
RIDDLE:
Figure this one out and I'll mail you a copy of my hardcover book...
If you take both of their first names - you have the full name of the brother of the object of the song that contains the line "that dirty little coward who shot Mr. Howard"
Hmmmm
I wish you worked for me!
8-)
Rick
I absolutely applaud anyone in business for themselves out there providing honest business solutions and creating real results for their clients.
...and, I have a theory about marketers. There are two types: numbers-based and heart-based.
The numbers guys pound their lists to a pulp wringing every dollar they can out of it; it's all about the conversions and list size and dollars (yeah, of course money is important - without profits, you have a hobby not a business); and once their targets get out their credit card and make a purchase, they're left in the dust ...'til the next offer.
The heart peeps, on the other hand, are genuinely concerned for their prospects and clients; they relate to their target market and networks as real people with real needs; they *want* to help create solid, measurable results... and they have an ongoing developmental path for their clients.
To each his own... but, really, the buyer needs to educate him/herself 'cuz the marketers are probably not too likely to change. No disrespect to Jack & his team - clearly there's a market for what they offer. It just has never resonated with my style... nor with those who've shared with me they moved on from the program.
Rick, I absolutely love your suggestion of hand-picking 2-3 good people to follow who match your style. Brilliant.
Aaaah, peace.
Mari Smiths last blog post..Annoying Facebook Friends? Give ‘em the FaceBOOT!
I actually just subscribed to the optin on your website http://tribalseduction.com/blog/ - so now you know what sort of pressure you are under to blow me away with great and clever stuff!
As a fellow Ustream.TV show boy - I look forward to getting to know ya.
I'm REALLY trying to get this post up on DIGG - if I Beg? Bonus? Link?
Rick ;-)
http://rickbutts.com/245/ed-dale-video-on-produ...
Rick kindly put up my response to this in his very own blog post
Exhibit B
ummm Jack claiming to be the first at anything in the wired world is a bit dangerous - Dude we were teaching that stuff inside the immediate edge in January of 2007 (perhaps more importantly making a boat load of money with it through 2006).
And I bet someone somewhere was teaching it before that!
Your free report in March had the impact it deserved. It was really excellent work.
So the point is Don Crowther copied from ME!!!!!
(yes Rick, Jack and Don - I'm kidding)
You know what the difference between Authority Black Book, Immediate Edge and SMARTS is...
EXHIBIT C
A BIG OL PRODUCT LAUNCH!!!
The elephant in the room in this whole thing is that in this most jaded (and now apparently bitchy) world of Marketers marketing to marketers....
PRODUCT LAUNCHES WORK BRILLIANTLY
If you use a product launch on your dodgy, crappy product - A POX ON YOUR HOUSE
I think SMARTS was brilliant and the thing that was brilliant was it bought an Academic step by step approach to something that was taught in scatter gun style (Big finger pointing at me!)
I'm really sorry to open a big old can of REALITY into this discussion but it terrifies me that you all read Ricks stuff to become better...
MARKETERS.
And that instead of filing all of this free education flowing into your mailbox - you RAGE against it.
I just don't get it -if your on a list and your not getting value UNSUBSCRIBE
(I agree with Rick about unsubscribes - just not his throwing the entire Grade 1 class of Beechworth Primary School out with the bathwater about unsubing because someone promoted Stompernet)
To the commenter above - if they don't take you off the list you can open up a can of FTC/Canspam whup ass on them and i'll be the first one there cheering you on.
Every mail program (on the mac it's super simple) has a very easy to use rule system that will automatically sort mail for you. I could not live with out that functionality.
But as people who have put their hand up and OPTED-IN to receive an email from someone to learn about marketing, don't you think the real issue is taking back control of your mail?
I mean, apart from the true spam stuff (Great News - I won one million dollars this morning..i'm so psyched!) all Internet Marketing mail you receive is because, well...
You asked for it.
These big launches work because the people behind them put in the airmiles, the phone minutes and the blood sweat and tears of building a list and a bunch of joint ventures.
You really want to use your Rage against the system...study the system very closely and then beat it at it's own game.
Look at www.thirtydaychallenge.com (Pre-season starts this Sunday June 1 BTW) I am all about community!!!
I love community - I am all for community but i am not blinded by RAGE in the system. For all the heat in this thread
- Fact -
Product Launches Work.
Not only Do they Work, They Work WELL,
no - they work
Brilliantly
My dream is that instead of people raging against the system - they take what they learn and use it to market really superb products in all sorts of niches. Where people love the excitement and drama of a launch (not that they would call it that). Make a bunch of money and then fly to one of Rick Butts gigs and heckle him.
Final Word - Jeff Walker is truly one of the good guys, he would be the first to recoil in horror if a shitty product was launched using his process.
Dan Thies is also one of the good guys and to suggest that he is somehow 'put up to this" is just plain wrong - Dan, is very much - his own man and I'm pretty sure that he has a second brain where one of his kidneys should be...
More Of The Final Word - Think back to our first product launch in this space - John Reese and Traffic Secrets. People loved that - it was exciting and John spent TWO YEARS going to every net conference to build relationships and help out people where ever he could. He Worked Hard and got the result.
Totally Final Word Really. Traffic Secrets 2 is going to be LAUNCHED very shortly. John will do a launch and it will be successful. The bits i've seen of what he is doing are spectacular.
Are you going to take the opportunity to learn from that launch - or just take pot-shots? Personally, I'll be setting up my Traffic Secrets II folder in MAIL and raging against the system by tracking every single move.
TWITTER!
The key to succeeding is to FOCUS and ya can't spell TIME WASTER without most of the letters in TWITTER.
Anyway - personally, I've been sick of Stomper since they launched-- but for different reasons. It had this feel of 'conglomerating the industry' -- or I guess bulldozing it. You will be assimilated and all that.
OH NO!! THEY GOT HOWIE!!! Heh heh.
As for Product Launches -- ohhh ... I dunno. I go back and forth. I've won some, I've lost some. (My own, my clients, etc.)
This notion that they don't work for the little guy is absolute baloney though -- the little guy most likely won't do a seven figure launch coming out of the gate (or even a six figure for that matter).
But as someone who promotes a*lot* of other people's products, I've noticed that launched products typically do convert better. The trouble is - there's so many launches - it's tough to even promote anything *but* a launched product (Hell, Rick just promoted IM Cure inside of his anti-stomper message - don't let that bald Butt fool ya.)
Recent launches have also gotten more sophisticated ... taking up to 4 weeks or more of PRE LAUNCH time. That's 4 weeks of GREAT FREE CONTENT if it's from someone like Eben Pagan or Jeff Walker.
I have to be honest - I didn't read every comment - but the real problem isn't "Product Launches" - it's "Product Launches into the Internet Marketing space selling products on how to sell products".
And if you've been around a while - you've seen a bunch of launches in this market.
Launches work very well in other niches too. That's what's so great about Jeff Walker's case studies - they prove that.
So, I dunno - -as someone deep into all this - I can tell ya that launches KEEP working. I said this at my recent Launch Master's Retreat ...
"3 Million seems to be the new '7 figure launch'"
This past quarter we saw a number of $3million launches.
It seems like just yesterday that ppl were wowed by a measly million. ;-)
I'm starting to ramble.
Peace out ya'll,
Harris
PS I'm working on the first $10 million launch for 2010.
(Hmmm - the spawn of an idea.) And I also own anti-launch.com -- so, Rick, if you've got the cajones to really go 'ANTI LAUNCH' - let's talk.
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I can see where the only thing anyone got out of my original was that I was some egotistical dumbass claiming first dibs on social marketing.
Wasn't my intent and everyone who really knows me knows I'm not that guy at all.
I honestly don't care anymore and can't remember the last time I let myself get baited like this.
All I was really replying to was one sentence in Dan's reply and on it went.
I feel better now. Not that I felt that bad before considering I have my own very loving, devoted posse and quite the perfect life. Only diff here is like Ed said, the big multi million dollar launch.
If we could all agree that the millions of dollars are the MAIN reason for doing any of it, then I'd be happy.
Believe it or not, I honestly like what I do and helping people enough that I choose not to make $18 million in one day at the expense of others.
You see, I can easily round up the same list of characters and do it too. One thing the gurus can't resist is a hot, pure commodity to profit from, and baby, I got game! There were talks very recently about turning me into the next Internet Idol with people you all know and "love."
Not gonna happen. I opted out of the mega-million dollar day. It doesn't matter to me if people don't believe that.
People who know me know I'm not crazy. So search for the real reason I wouldn't do it and you have ANOTHER way of looking at internet marketing instead of what is now almost considered the ONLY way judging by all the launches.
Hell we all knew more were coming. Walker put out a killer course and now we can count on way more than just Stomper doing it.
And there WERE big launches well before Walker spilled the beans. And conversations just like this one.
10 years of this same exact argument and I still haven't learned to keep my mouth shut and just cash the damn checks.
recommending to UNsubscribe to other people's lists
that you actually just SUBSCRIBED to mine - annnnd
posted that confession right here! How cool is THAT?!
Who's my buddy?
RICK BUTTS is my buddy - fer sure!
Seriously dude - TX 4 the tips & the DM's on Twitter
I have SO enjoyed our conversations & your blog posts
here.
Funny thing is - I subscribed to your blog even before you
posted that you just subscribed to mine!
Now THAT's integrity & adding REAL value for subscribers
working right before our very eyes - via Twitter
Digg this post?
u betcha!
@CoachDeb
(Aka Tribal Seducer -- NOT molestor!)
Frank James it is!
Twitter me your snail mail address - or put it here and we'll all send ya cards and checks in the mail?
Clever girl!
Rick
If I wasn't so embarrassed I got sucked into one of the oldest tricks in the book I'd link to you too! :)
Time waster? Not in my opinion.
Sharon Bray-McPherson
http://twitter.com/sbraymcpherson
Sharon Bray-McPhersons last blog post..5 Steps to Getting Started With Twitter
5 N. Washington St.
Beverly Hills, FL 34465
Keep those cards, letters AND checks coming folks. ;-)
Sharon Bray-McPhersons last blog post..5 Steps to Getting Started With Twitter
The discussion is fantastic, but beyond all the Stomper & PLF debate, the main take away I got from you is: stay focused - don't get distracted by the latest shiney thing, and stay organized - don't get cluttered by emails & products that you don't have a specific purpose for.
BTW, Jesse James brother was Frank. Where's my book?
5 N. Washington St.
Beverly Hills, FL 34465
The WINNER of the free copy of the Big Butts of Life Blue Ribbon Edition!
Now that we have her address - I recommend that everyone start mailing her a letter or a postcard with your Twitter ID on it so that she can add you to Twitter - and you can start following one of the bright stars in the Internet marketing real world. And a history buff too!
http://janronpublishing.blogspot.com/
"And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love, you make..." The Beatles
If you were to put into one sentence what this thread of comments is about, what would that be?
As it seems to have moved way off the original topic.
And become an avenue to vent, finger point and cast aspersions.
Back to what I perceive the original post to be about.
"Unsubscribing From Whoever Emailed You Stompernet"
Which I believe was wanting to make the point ???
That the tactics 'big' IMers are using lack integrity? Or our outdated? So show your displeasure by unsubscribing?
I apologize if I am off track.
I would like to offer my opinion.
Oh I'm a 'no-body' in IM. I am a learner, I guess you could say I am now a 'young adult' as far as experience.
And I am full time, earning a good income to support myself. So definitely more than $500 a month (plus I like a certain lifestyle lol).
I would say honestly I am a follower as opposed to a pioneer in this industry - I don't aspire to be a guru, I do love helping and teaching others how to make work what I have (and it's what I've learned off others).
I have chosen who I am a student of - when I started I thought I had to know it all in 5 minutes, off ALL the 'guru's' (where did that phrase come from?!), and then I picked the people who I like both personally and professionally (Ed Dale, Dan Raine and Frank Kern in his Ultra Underachiever days).
Plus I have met and made some amazing friends in this industry. AMAZING!
I am sure I am part of a bigger segment who would have a similar profile.
So my opinion...
I saw all of the emails flood in for Stompernet from their affiliates, and them themselves.
I ignored most of them, deleted them - without any emotion or engagement.
So yes that is telling. They're not cutting through. The majority of them. I have 'discerned' before I hit delete, that they are not teaching me anything for my own marketing.
And then an occasional email caught my (tired) eye. Something about it stood out. Something I wanted to register for myself as an IMer with my own niches.
Though not enough for me to want to join Stompernet: just because I'm clear on where my focus is right now, not because it lacks anything, as I wasn't ever going to look deeply into it for the former reason, so I can't intelligently comment on Stompernet's value.
So what does that mean to me?
As that is what it is really about - what it means to each of us as Internet Marketers - whatever level we operate at.
Well for me, yes I register that I am saturated with emails.
Funnily - I've also been thinking my main niches might be going through the same thing - as I am overdue updating them. (it is on the list!)
My approach seems to still be working, as my conversion rates etc are still attractive.
But hey, if I was them...same old, same old...there's going to be a time soon where it wont work so well (Sigmoid Curve!)...so laziness could cost me!
And I guess I feel that way for those bigger Internet Marketers. If what they are doing works for them - why would they change?
Maybe simply because like myself, even though they are 'working', I am feeling I am not giving to my niche community in alignment with how I like to operate.
Or maybe there's the risk of the Sigmoid Curve for them too (well at least I'm not quoting Astrology lol ;-) )
But I am not going to tell them they have to - that's a personal choice.
Or if it's not working - they'll know that, and I am sure they'll do something about it. They didn't get to where they are without acumen in this field. And if they are 'missing the new 8 ball' - well that will just be part of their own professional journey.
We're all on one.
Hmmmm, I guess I wonder, and it's most probably a reflection (indictment) on my personality, why so many are so angry about this? (outside of those feeling they need to defend themselves).
I am aware that 'pushing' and public opinion is often instrumental to change. Is this what the original post and comments are about?
Is it really about getting a message out to the 'big guns' that it's time to change? To refresh?
If so...what with?
And if so - can we convey that message without anger and mudslinging?
As I find it so much easier to hear and learn from when it is just about the content, without the emotion.
I also feel a Gandhi quote coming on: "Be the Change Your Want To See In The World"
If we don't like what's happening - why not change the domain we have direct control over - our marketing efforts - rather than try to get other's to change?
Generally that is how effective change happens - people see what someone is doing, see it works, and then adopt that for themselves.
OK - you might think I'm off to light some incense and bow to Ganesh..but I'm actually off for a glass of well aged Chardonnay...
Caro :-)
PS: If you sign up to my IM list - I am such a slacker with it! Sorry - I get caught up with actually running my businesses (and procrastinating! :o).
@Jack - I don't really know you except for what I've seen on the 'net (& I'm a member of your FTR ning community, tho not very active), I think you're digging a deeper hole for yourself with soundbites like this, "If we could all agree that the millions of dollars are the MAIN reason for doing any of it, then I'd be happy." Are you serious?? In my world, money is the BYPRODUCT of the VALUE you add to people's lives and the results you help create. Maybe I misread ya!
Mari Smiths last blog post..Annoying Facebook Friends? Give ‘em the FaceBOOT!
Mari: Jack is aces. I think he was reacting to a situation that we will never really know the full story about - and he's too much of a good man to tell it.
My love to you all for your tremendous support of this discussion - I'm sorry the approval thing is on for the blog - and I just have to go watch a sweet romantic movie on DVD "Atonement" and just hug my single self...
(and enjoy the new video I put on the home page!)
And you've just climbed past Telly Savalas and Yul Brynner on my list of sexy guys with no hair.
But seriously, thank you very much.
Sharon Bray-McPherson
http://twitter.com/sbraymcpherson
Sharon Bray-McPhersons last blog post..5 Steps to Getting Started With Twitter
It has been interesting reading all that is going on here. Thanks for the post.
I actually enjoy the launch process. If you don't like all the emails it is easy to unsubscribe. As I have my own domain and control over email addresses on that domain I created a special address that I use to subscribe to the launch stuff.
I then just read if I have some time. As the launch formula is all about providing great value in the pre-launch if you just watch the videos people make available for free there is a lot of great information you can learn from.
The latest stuff I have seen comes from Eben's launch. I have no plans to buy his stuff no matter how appealing his launch is (my wife makes sure of that) but you get great content for free.
It is also a great way to analyse how the guru's do things. You can choose to model what they do or come up with something altogether different.
The power is with the individual.
I have to admit I was once a Stompernet member. I like many felt overwhelmed with content and dropped my membership. They did try hard to get people earning enough in a month to cover the membership cost.
Do you say they only had their pockets to think about or were they genuine in trying to help people make a go of it? Of course getting the members to earn enough to cover fees and have them stay will keep the profits going at Stompernet.
The moral of all this is that launches can be used to increase your knowledge of the industry.
I know that the launch formula does not teach people to go and sell crap. Of course that does happen but it does not mean that the launch method is to blame.
cheers
Rob Keating
Rob Keatings last blog post..China earthquake - The heroic rescue with a sad ending
But some of the free tips going out with the launch videos are definitely worth taking notice of, so I haven't unsubscribed from the main list yet.
Listening to the phone call linked to on this post however was a waste of my time. It's just like two people very slowly and repetitively talking about the bleeding obvious, on a poor quality line with irritating voices. If you wrote down carefully what they have to say it would fill at most three short paragraphs, but takes almost hour to grind through, wincing.
How about we just have a battle royal cage match after
drinking a couple cases of domestic brew?
I wish more blogs and forums would fight like this.
This stuff is my favorite!
Because in the end, it just sells more stuff for all
sides involved.
Now who wants a knuckle sandwich from off the top rope?
J-Mo
PS: Don't read my blog if you value your health.
Jason Moffatts last blog post..We Blew Up Ustream.tv and Then Blew Up My Liver
Is there a line drawn in the sand?
Hillary vs Barack?
Democrats vs Republicans?
TNA wrestling match?
Do we have to vote?
Everyone has their strategies and tactics. Everyone has their own preferences. Hopefully everyone is doing what works for them. Variety gives us all choices.
The products launches are used because that particular strategy works. When people stop responding I am sure the fittest will evolve and find a new strategy to survive.
The barrage of emails can get very annoying but that is why delete functions were invented. Tiny red ants have invaded my house like at NASA but life goes on. 90% of the time the ones who send the most during launch are quiet.
I did get several emails from an affiliate and at least part time cadre saying to clear cookies. I think the other affiliates should be more annoyed than me.
Maybe a new tactic is send a single email about an anticipated new product and sit and wait for a hungry crowd to send email after email to the launcher asking for more information or inquiring how to get the new product.
Harvard doesn't have to launch their new school year opening. The student candidates go to them trying to get in. Harvard and other prestigious universities do try to recruit the brightest stars in certain fiels.
I am sure if a few people ended up with a warehouse full of unsold products the current product launch strategies would change drastically.
There are pros and cons for both sides here. There is talent, experience and wisdom on both sides and as for me I know I can learn from both.
Both strategies can be effective, whether it's the blitzkrieg shock and awe product launch or the win the hearts and minds of the locals psychological operations of social networking.
Product launches can be annoying and irritating to some people but social networking can cause some people to feel left out or ignored. One can be overkill and one can be underkill.
Are you ready to RUMBLE?
Tonight, Live From Rick Butts Arena, the Kick Butt Marketing Mania Mayhem. ProductLaunch vs SocialMarketing, only one will walk out of the ring. Will ProductLaunch get un-subscribed or will SocialMarketing get blocked, ignored or deleted?
That's my theory.
I was a charter member of Stompernet and I made my decision to buy as soon as I heard about it, previous to the launch. The reason was I had already bought Stomping The Search Engines and had benefitted from the high quality of the content in that little course. To me, Brad and Andy had a solid gold reputation, their new program didn't need any selling.
But what followed in the launch sequence I found so tedious and obnoxious I almost didn't buy. The "don't reveal too much" video case studies. The confabulated "fight" between Sydney Johnston and the Rich Jerk. I mean, come on, surely they didn't think I was "that" gullible.
The relationship Brad and Andy had with their STSE customers was one of intelligence, high trust, and integrity. You just felt a lot smarter every time you listened to them, and it seemed like they shared everything with you.
Now, with Stompernet, for some reason you were assumed to be a moron, the kind of consumer who would tune in for Jerry Springer every day. Why else would we be offered G'ma vs RJ? And upon joining, mass confusion, info overload. Why is it again I'm paying $770 a month?
There obviously wasn't much attention devoted to the customer experience once the money had been paid.
I was tempted again with the Smarts launch recently, but it was just too much information being blasted out again. Once bitten, twice shy.
I've had the same basic experience with the other mega gurus that have launched over the last 18 months. The end result? No trust. SN et al demonstrate by their actions they are more concerned with the big payday than they are with providing real value for their customers.
I'm sure the indivdual gurus themselves would disagree, but that's my experience. I'm unconcerned with what Stompernet, or Jeff Johnson, or Mike Filsaime, or anyone says in their emails. The bottom line is, I don't trust them anymore.
Until I can call them on the phone for help, the way I can with Michael Campbell, or Colin McDougal, they don't matter. There's no value in their offer anymore.
Anyway, customers are not morons, and if Brad and Andy would resume sharing their honesty and intelligence and cease "marketing", Stompernet might save itself.
Best,
Helene Kvist
This really sparked some great debate.
But from “European point of view” this is nothing new.
Internet Marketing should be based on “common sense and human nature”, not superlatives and hype.
In fact, few weeks ago I was talking in a Internet Marketing seminar and asked entrepreneurs all over Europe, what they don’t like in Internet Marketing ?
We came out in a list of more than 20 things people hate in IM.
Then we took the opposite of those things and came out with a list of essential things for Internet Marketing in 2008:
(And this is something I have been talking long time already)
1. You need to give valuable stuff to your target market
2. You need to build relationship with your target market
3. You need to tell your story to your target market
4. You need to communicate with integrity and honesty with you target market
I think Frank Kern is a good example of internet marketing guru who is doing these things, and that is probably why he has such a big following.
(plus, he is doing many other great things)
This is like in all business and communications, if you use common sense and human nature you will get results.
I also admire a lot Jeff Walker and his product launch formula. It’s one of the best product ever done.
I’m doing a launch now (in non english, non IM niche) and sending people videos where I explain what’s coming.
This way there are less misunderstandings and everyone is happy, plus it makes sense because its something you would do in offline business. (showing your face, and telling people what you got)
Lasse Rouhiainen
Spain
Ps. It’s interesting to see the social media discussion here. I really enjoy Howie Schwartz, Ed Dale and Jack Humphrey (with no specific order) and I’m following all of them.
Pps. @Marismith great point that many marketer’s think Twitter is waste of time. I think its mostly because its not a marketing tool, but relationship building and communication tool.
So it takes time to understand its true potential if you are only focusing on marketing.
Now does anyone have the balls to create a list or poll of who's hot and who's a not??
Jan
Silently making my wave
I think his comment shows the most balanced perspective.
On a side note, if you are a marketer, you face ethical decisions every day.
Do you sell this product or that product?
Do you "churn 'em and burn 'em" or do you nurture them and develop relationships? (Both philosophies are alive and well.)
And, with regard to Product Launches and other marketing tactics...
Do the ends justify the means?
These are all questions you have to answer for yourself and your business.
Like Ed says: If you're getting opt-in email, you asked for it.
I linked to this post from my blog... not because of the controversy... but because the core message is important.
That is, unsubscribe from "noise" so you can focus and actually get things done.
Ryan
Ryan Healys last blog post..Rick Butts Says… Unsubscribe!
You wrote this link bait post to get traffic to Scott's book, period. You didn't say that is what this post was for but, but that is what it is for.
At least, when Stomper does a launch they don't do it under the guise of something else. They flat out tell you they are going to give you some great content and then try to sell you something. (Rick, what great content did you personally provide on this webpage? Honestly.)
As a former member of StomperNet, I have my own issues with them, but how they sell their product is not one of them.
I think they did make some mistakes with this launch. But I don't fault them for pushing the limits to find where the mistakes are. That is a part of business.
And I don't fault the affiliates either. If I am an affiliate, how am I to know that in addition to my list, Rick, you are subscribed to 60 other internet marketing lists? I can't control what comes into your inbox!! That is your job. If you are getting to many emails than unsubscribe - but don't have any negative feelings toward the affiliate.
Bart
p.s. I intentionally did not put a url link in this post.
For example you may be signed up for multiple lists for the same internet marketer. I don't think it's the case that they are refusing to unsubscribe you or that the process is not working.
I often get 2 or 3 of the same messages from the same marketer because I am on multiple lists of theirs. I may be on their subscriber list for a certain product, on a subscriber list for a different service, etc...
So before you start filing complaints and accusing everyone of Spamming you, make absolute sure that you did not signup for multiple lists from the same marketer.
Adam
But it sure has been fun!
Of COURSE product launches "work" even if they are not fun to behold. The problem is putting short term success ahead of long term success in the way a launch is managed.
Being the cynical old gal I am, I will vote that the buying public often has either short term memory loss or they never can see thru the hype in the first place. Otherwise, how can you explain the fact that for the past 50 years they have been selling weight loss products that stand no chance of working? "It's quick, easy, no exercising and you can eat all the greasy double cheeseburgers ya want...only $19.95!"
Tell people WHAT they want to hear, regardless of reality, and a large number of them will buy. See how much I learned for all those eons working in TV?
Lorraine Grulas last blog post..Video Production Tips special offer
I've followed the development and growth of this industry for well over 10 years now tracking the trends, attitudes, and marketing tactics of a great many players (of all sizes and descriptions, including virtually all of the "names" mentioned in the conversational thread). There have been very few who have distinguished themselves as good role models identified in the exercise.
As many your posters have witnessed and experienced, financial success is not an indicator of professionalism, maturity, excellence or value. All to often it is the result of exploitation, greed and misrepresentation. In the long term, that's just not good business, nor is it good business strategy.
There's a reason we have the sayings "everything old is new again" and "everything new has already been invented".
Sure, it may take a bit longer to establish a financially viable and sustainable business when you're a heart- and principle-based leader (to Mari's point); however, chasing dollars and holding a scarcity mindset automatically limit what a business owner (any business owner) can achieve.
Those who make the focus of their entrepreneurial endeavours professional excellence, serve as models of integrity, and practice humility, differentiate themselves from all competition. No sturm and drang or mud-slinging required.
They are well rewarded for this, beyond what can even be imagined and in ways not always summarized on the corporate balance sheet.
At the end of the day though, each must choose his or her own path and should expect to be treated accordingly. Call me naive if you will, but I believe those who have the strongest sense of self, ethics, and the purest hearts and intentions will prevail.
Professor Linda M. Lopeke
http://www.SmartStartGiving.com
However, do you personallly have time to read, review, use, and test each and every single product you promote?
Or do you merely say "My products are what you really need"?
Stomper.net's a good product, I have an older version and these guys are known for the good information on traffic generation and SEO. Therefore, when people that are known for something, and known as Experts in that area, then they should be listened to and trusted.
In principle I agree that other marketers hop on bandwagons, but the reality is that those JV partners who made a lot of sales were lined up before the launch, and those who made a few sales came on board after, probably trying to offset their costs for the product, IF they bought it.
Look, I've done the unsubscribe thing, too, and I'm not on many lists anymore and it helps my focus tremendously, but you cannot apply tactics from every single product you've ever read and promote it in a timely manner, now can you?
THIS is where relationships come into play! If in the past someone had a good product that you DID review, then the trust and relationship is there and you can promote it with integrity...
GURU ENVY is for those frustrated marketers who haven't made a dime from their efforts. Unsubscribing can be a good thing for them since they'll focus on their business instead of reading emails constantly.
Although I agree with much of what you wrote here, product launches DO work, because it IS MassMind Control, how else is buzz created? Not by one person mailing out to his own lists with no JV partners lined up, that's for sure.
Product launches are GOOD marketing, and most of the JV partners have reviewed the product or trust the product owners enough to safely promote it.
You can say you're in this biz merely to help people but everyone has something to sell, everyone is looking for the fruits of their labors, and everyone hopes to achieve this by promoting good products.
BTW, I didn't promote this nor was I invited to, but the point here is that guru envy is why people unsubscribe. My last 6 emails to my list were nothing but pure content, but money is made by selling stuff.
Don't knock it!
You're right about how much content is placed in between promotional emails, but you can't blame a marketer for mailing out for a good product. People are looking for advice and good products, or just a reason to unsubscribe.
Thanks,
Dan
P.S. I see your blog is well monetized, should I not subscribe to your blog because you're trying to sell stuff on each and every blog post?
Of course not, because content laced with promotions is how its done, so good job there..
Ed is correct. Each of us signed up to every single list we're on. None of us is prevented from clicking "unsubscribe."
Here's how I handle it:
All of my list email gets tagged with "list" within Gmail and archived to remove it from the inbox. Periodically, I will look at the items tagged, "list," then do a search for a specific "from" name, deciding after looking at the bulk of his emails whether I will change the filter to tag them "swipe," "instruction," or both. If there is no value to the list, I unsubscribe/delete.
By handling it this way, I no doubt miss out on some time-sensitive mega launches (yeah, right), but it helps me fight information overload while still allowing me to use the resources that have been offered.
Bill Webbs last blog post..Children & Divorce - No Suprises, Please
Naturally, I have no real quarrel with you. Your post certainly has raised some food for thought. However, some of the comments sent a cold shiver down my back:
"marketing is inherently biased, skewed information designed to make you feel positive about the product."
"Instead, let's watch for Dime Sales from the likes of Robert Plank and George Plus."
"Put a mark in the Signal column for each email with useful info and no sales links."
Dime sales? So if I spend time building case studies, profiles, useful content, you want me to turn around and give it to you for a dime? I'm going to need a whole mess of dimes to make my landlord happy!
Emails with no sales links? I find it slightly worrisome that marketers are getting upset when other marketers try to sell them things. This ain't charity.
"CONTENT, a word through around too liberally in internet marketing imho..."
I'm primarily a writer that discovered I could provide amazing content for people, bring value, and get paid for that value. I don't run mega-launches, or pester a bunch of JVs. In fact, I still even write honest to God letters and mail 'em snail-style. Talk about wanting a personal connection!
Guys, I understand the *problem*, but the people we're talking about in this thread have expenses and dreams just like any of us. I'm not one to say that an email with sales links is a bad one, or isn't considered "signal" -- my swipe file is filled to the brim with great email that had a link in it. I don't want to name more names and earn pitchforks at the same time. Oh wait, I'll name just one, the lady that convinced an itty bitty writer from Missouri to "rise above" the negativity surrounding marketing and go for it:
Alexis Dawes.
Marketing is without content? I've personally talked to Ms. Dawes, read her books -- nearly everyone she's put out, and to quote my man Andre 3000, "Value is what I'm talkin' 'bout!" She delivers, and I could probably name a couple other marketers I feel the same way about.
As for the "marking emails as spam" ... wow. If my list expects me to spend hours collecting information, testing and sharing experience without me even leaving a link to get paid ...well, I might catch flames about this (and yes, I left my *real marketer name* in this post - nice to meet y'all! ;D) but this is not charity. This is Marketing Club.
Just a wandering nichelady that stumbled across this post from Ed Dale on twitter. Stay paid, folks. If your beef is with the Stomper folks, build a resource that delivers the value you want to see.
If your beef is with marketers that "sell too much" (*giggle*), build a list that delivers the relationship you want to have.
But you know, as I'm often fond of saying, it's really not about getting paid. It's about staying paid. Seriously -- and that's why I think the post launch formula has to be refined so that you can "stay paid" without hacking off half the community. But I digress. I'm just a wanderer on a roll. ;)
Isabella Murphy
Naturally, I have no real quarrel with you. Your post certainly has raised some food for thought. However, some of the comments sent a cold shiver down my back:
"marketing is inherently biased, skewed information designed to make you feel positive about the product."
"Instead, let's watch for Dime Sales from the likes of Robert Plank and George Plus."
"Put a mark in the Signal column for each email with useful info and no sales links."
Dime sales? So if I spend time building case studies, profiles, useful content, you want me to turn around and give it to you for a dime? I'm going to need a whole mess of dimes to make my landlord happy!
Emails with no sales links? I find it slightly worrisome that marketers are getting upset when other marketers try to sell them things. This ain't charity.
"CONTENT, a word through around too liberally in internet marketing imho..."
I'm primarily a writer that discovered I could provide amazing content for people, bring value, and get paid for that value. I don't run mega-launches, or pester a bunch of JVs. In fact, I still even write honest to God letters and mail 'em snail-style. Talk about wanting a personal connection!
Guys, I understand the *problem*, but the people we're talking about in this thread have expenses and dreams just like any of us. I'm not one to say that an email with sales links is a bad one, or isn't considered "signal" -- my swipe file is filled to the brim with great email that had a link in it. I don't want to name more names and earn pitchforks at the same time. Oh wait, I'll name just one, the lady that convinced an itty bitty writer from Missouri to "rise above" the negativity surrounding marketing and go for it:
Alexis Dawes.
Marketing is without content? I've personally talked to Ms. Dawes, read her books -- nearly everyone she's put out, and to quote my man Andre 3000, "Value is what I'm talkin' 'bout!" She delivers, and I could probably name a couple other marketers I feel the same way about.
As for the "marking emails as spam" ... wow. If my list expects me to spend hours collecting information, testing and sharing experience without me even leaving a link to get paid ...well, I might catch flames about this (and yes, I left my *real marketer name* in this post - nice to meet y'all! ;D) but this is not charity. This is Marketing Club.
Just a wandering nichelady that stumbled across this post from Ed Dale on twitter. Stay paid, folks. If your beef is with the Stomper folks, build a resource that delivers the value you want to see.
If your beef is with marketers that "sell too much" (*giggle*), build a list that delivers the relationship you want to have.
But you know, as I'm often fond of saying, it's really not about getting paid. It's about staying paid. Seriously -- and that's why I think the post launch formula has to be refined so that you can "stay paid" without hacking off half the community. But I digress. I'm just a wanderer on a roll. ;)
Isabella Murphy
As a marketer of group cruise vacations (that have 99% customer satisfaction and a zero refund rate), I sure am glad that most of MY launches are to niches outside of the IM world.
Personally, I have never even considered purchasing anything that didn't relate to building my core biz, no matter how many new bright & shiny "opportunities" are paraded in front of me.
Having said that, I am not put off by the ever-increasing high-ticket launches being done, nor have I unsubscribed from any email lists. I am constantly finding a little golden nugget here or there, be it in the "content" or just the marketing styles used.
And I've found that MANY programs really DO work, if you just consume he content and take MASSIVE immediate action (which most people don't).
If anyone wants to continue this conversation in person, please join me for a Pina Colada in the Aft. Jacuzzi on the Lido Deck of the Amazing Annual Internet...
http://MarketersCuise.com
But ideas can't be copyrighted or patented. Stomper is kinda the Microsoft of the IM world. They take the great stuff that's happening in the IM marketplace and package it for mass consumption, then unleash the uber-marketing beast on it!
After all, SEO Club was really the original StomperNet. A private place for sharing SEO secrets and links, and getting personal training. It was around long before even the Stomping the Search Engines ebook came out. In fact, I'm not going to name names, but someone with the initials "Brad" and "Fallon" was an SEO Club member way back before writing that book!
I don't have one single grumpy bone in my body over that issue. Brad and Andy have done some really great things and are an inspiration to everyone. I mean they're producing a feature film now, for crying out loud!
They didn't "steal" the idea of SEO Club. I chose to go a different direction back in 2004 by focusing on developing software for building SEO websites. Now my full attention is back at SEO Club.
They had me out to Atlanta to speak at one of the Stomper seminars, and that was a blast. It's all good stuff that we all share in this space. Getting upset about the details just removes positive energy from what you're working on.
No one commenting in this thread probably wants to hear it, but a lot of the frustration over one of these launches is just plain jealousy. They wish they had a network of friends that includes a "John Reese", a "Frank Kern", and a "Yanik". But the fact is those guys have been building their relationships and businesses for a whole lotta years, and they deserve what they have created. You'll have to make your own; put in the sweat, and tears.
Oh, and I have to agree with one commenter - Harris, if Twitter is a waste of time for you, you're not using it right! I spend less than 5 minutes a day on the thing and have gotten hundreds of list signups and several sales from it. It's another great communication medium.
End of Rant. Great job in getting me to contribute content to YOUR blog instead of MINE, Rick!
-Nathan
Nathan Andersons last blog post..Death of the Product Launch
I consider spam to be those thousands of emails I get per week trying to sell me everything from fake name-brand purses to miracle cures that will enlarge something that being a woman, I don't even have to enlarge.
Spam IS NOT receiving emails from a list that YOU opted-in to receive, unless of course you request to be removed from the list and the list owner still sends you mail - and no ethical marketer that I know of would do something that stupid.
My beef is with the mailing lists that I joined, because I was promised helpful content or "training", yet the only "content" I receive from the list owner are ads for the latest and greatest product launch, giveaway, blah, blah, blah.
If that's all I want from a list, I can submitt my ads to one of the thousands of FAA sites or join a safelist.
Sharon Bray-McPherson
http://twitter.com/sbraymcpherson
Sharon Bray-McPhersons last blog post..5 Steps to Getting Started With Twitter
For all you Twitter haters... I hate it too, but it's not useless.
If you do nothing else, just get that script that twits your blog posts for you and publish a link to your Twitter feed. Then check back and see how many followers you get. A lot of people prefer to get their news on Twitter.
If you can get Ed Dale to "follow" you, a couple hundred members of his Twitter army will be following you within a couple weeks.
Sharon Bray-McPherson
Sharon Bray-McPhersons last blog post..5 Steps to Getting Started With Twitter
One person said "some of the comments sent a cold shiver down my back:"...
and then they referenced one of my comments:
"marketing is inherently biased, skewed information designed to make you feel positive about the product." (I said this in an earlier post)
I hate to be the one to break it to anyone, but OF COURSE marketing info is skewed, always has been skewed and always will be skewed. That is the nature of marketing copy. Go take Marketing 101. To expect marketing copy to contain the authenticity of true objective reporting is naive in the extreme. (Not that true objective reporting is very common. Good luck finding any of that.) Heck no there's no authentic reporting because it's too polluted with marketing and PR crap. And I do mean crap.
Just like a romance novel gives the reader a skewed idea of the "real world" of relationships, marketing copy gives the reader a skewed view of the product.
This is not a JUDGEMENT, I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm saying that's how it IS. Whether it's good or bad depends on how it is used. A TV commercial is supposed to be hype. But if the pharmaseutical company produces a "video news release" that is a thinly veiled commerical passed off as news to hype their new miracle drug and they neglect to mention that pesky side effect of sudden death, well.....then that's not ok.
Does that reality make you shiver, ma'am? It happens ALL THE TIME.
Now if you do not believe marketing copy is INHERENTLY BIASED SKEWED INFORMATION DESIGNED TO MAKE YOU FEEL POSITIVE ABOUT THE PRODUCT, then you must be awfully confused by the world around you. As is about 90% of the population.
Marketers are constantly trying to pass of marketing copy as "real information" and a lot of people fall for it. Most people fall for it. Television is full of it. Which is why we have such an inauthentic world.
There are times when marketing copy can include some decent information, but when looked at as a whole, marketing information is NOT quality content meant to inform. It's meant to persuade. Big difference.
Ain't it a drag bring a realist?
Lorraine Grulas last blog post..Video Production Tips special offer
I was just suggesting possible reasons why and be careful to call them spammers due to those reasons.
There were a few posts about that, but by the time mine got approved there were about 50 posts in between.
Adam
One of my favorite takeaways from Rich Schefren's seminar last July was a printout of every single email and piece of promotional material that had led to the people in the conference being there. His whole marketing plan in a binder as a surprise that Dwain had spent a long time preparing.
I promoted Stompernet, and Rick even dropped me a message on Twitter that he didn't mean me in this post - I tried to add some value to what I wrote, and received some healthy editorial links.
There are all kinds of issues I still need to cover in a blog post regarding product launches and the new consumer protection laws appearing throughout Europe, especially when some aspect of the marketing might be looked on as Business to Consumer.
Just to stick a lever in the social media marketing history lessons, there is nothing really new about it from an SEO perspective.
It is effectively the same as article marketing 3 years ago, though most people were looking at the benefit of the links from the articles themselves and not how they could be used for online reputation management and the benefit of creating hubs of content.
Hmm, September 2005
http://ezinearticles.com/?Black-Hat-Search-Engi...
Even when I wrote that I doubt the ideas were new - I certainly wasn't very experienced at SEO at the time, and I didn't have my feelers in SEO circles, but it was original thought, my own ideas - yeah people can have similar thoughts and come to similar or related conclusions.
There was also the other emphasis with Article Marketing of writing articles so that the headline was attractive to a particular audience so that it might be picked up for wider distribution - email list owners - it is very similar to half of what is written about SMO these days.
Chris from Ezine Articles even has a site with top 7 lists.
Jack was certainly one of the most vocal in 2005 about the benefits of article marketing
For me the primary focus is
1. Is it relevant for my audience, irrespective of whether I will make a fortune writing about it?
2. Can I write something that adds to the conversation that is the original / interesting?
3. Are the people running the program honest and honouring any guarantees?
Here some new stats for you, the internet marketing niche is jaded, I can tell by my search traffic.
I know the search traffic I received when Stompernet first launched, when Portal Feeder first launched - when Day Job Killer launched I received 3,000 visits from search traffic over the space of a week.
You don't see that kind of search traffic any more. I have a few good rankings for various products over the last 12 months.
In my opinion the savvy middle tier of marketers is pretty much burned out other than WSOs and private member deals. They are certainly not all subscribed to my blog.
Those that are buying are going for a 2 for 1 deal - e.g. get Altitude for free by joining Stompernet.
Andy Beards last blog post..Search Engine Reputation Management (SERM) Market Size?
I'm not arguing that marketing isn't skewed. I'm not arguing that marketing is a fountain of unbiased information. I'm kinda scratching my head and going, "So what if it is?" Maybe that's a tack that most people don't want to take these days, but please: everything is biased. I know that when I pick up the newspaper, a reporter is going to slip in their point of view, however slight. Maybe I'm reading the wrong newspapers. Could you point me to a newspaper or body of work that doesn't have any bias, please? I would love to read it.
I DO owe you an apology, both to you and the people following this thread -- I neglected to add the names of the people I quoted. It makes it difficult to follow the conversation, and I regret being unable to edit my own comment to correct that.
However: I am not naive, nor confused. I'm not expecting marketing to do anything other than offer a product. The notion that we mere mortals are just too weak to pass up marketing copy isn't one I subscribe to, and I'm sure you don't either.
So, Lorraine: is persuasion a bad thing? It's a tool like any other, kind of the way I view my father's hacksaw. If I don't use it right, it might hack off part of my leg, but if I use it with finesse, I accomplish what I came to do.
I'm having a hard time quarreling with you, Lorraine, because I think we're saying the same things in some places, just slightly differently. The bane of text. I admire your cynicism though; maybe I'm just too naive to let it affect what I've set out to accomplish with my marketing. To each their own.
Digging into the guts of advertising is a pastime of mine. I don't buy everything on tv, even if it's presented to my so-called demographic. That 90% of the population probably could say the same.
Isabella Murphy, who can't keep her mouth shut either
Isabella "Nichelady" Murphys last blog post..Balancing Mindset, Action, Image, and Twitter
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/rick-butts
As for the excessive repetitious email from marketers you try to unsub from, often the ubiquitous squeeze page is the problem, when you have to give it up every time to get past the gatekeeper. I once had more than 10 dupes of every email from a certain relentless list-builder.
Lots of fun and insights in these comments - thanks to all.
Linda Lupowitzs last blog post..Promoting Your Small Business Using Ezines
Anyways, I started watching a replay of one of your shows, where your wearing a red Hawaiin shirt with a bookshelf behind you...
Oh the irony!! Your bookshelf is filled with Stompernet DVD's!!! I'd recognize those expensive dust-collecting bookends anywhere because they are sitting on my shelves too!
I just found that sooo freakin hilarious, given this latest thread. Please keep the entertainment and laughs coming!
Russells last blog post..English Lessons How To Diagram A Sentence
i like your comparison of marketing with a romance novel very much - in a positive way.
I would even go one step further and say, yes, good marketing SHOULD make people fall for the info, and most of all make them fall in LOVE with the product or service being marketed ...*-)
Regards,
Michael
Michaels last blog post..Are You One Out Of Ten?
But does my boyfriend look like Fabian? Heck no. Do I look like the gal on the cover? Heck no!
But, do my breasts heave with eager anticipation? Well, I'm 50 so I do my best.
It's all about spin baby.
Reality not only bites, it's often quite boring.
As a journalist, my favorite motto was, "dare to be dull." Unfortunately, most of the TV News world lived by, "If it bleeds it leads."
We need dirty laundry.
Lorraine Grulas last blog post..Video Production Tips special offer
I'm listening toyour show, and I'm finding that you seem to bea very down to earth guy.
I'm very new to internet marketing, and it seems to methat almost everyone I see is selling everyone elses stuff. This thing goes on an on and on to the point, where I wonder if these people have anything else to do.
I understand that there is money in selling other peoples products, I sell a few products in particular niches, which have nothing to do with IM.
What is a new person supposed to believe. Whats what, whos who, what do you believe and who do you follow.
I'm so overloaded with information thats its mind boggling.
Any Suggestions.
Lost and Confused
Timothy
I agree with your core message - and I unsubscribed months ago from many email lists - except for a handful of those that I really find useful and want to follow (I think I only got about 2 different people endorsing stomper).
When I was getting started, I remember thinking that going through all of those emails was accomplishing something.
It wasn't! It was reading commercials for minutes to hours!
I don't think stomper is evil, and I don't think product launches are either.
I think it is the marketing to marketers - when everyone else owns PLF as well - that it becomes a bit absurd.
I think the biggest issue is: is your marketing consistent with who you are and your relationship with your subscribers/ customers.
If it is - then they will enjoy and be excited by your launch. If it isn't - they will be angry and frustrated.
That's all I have to say - except for the fact that I spent a lot more time reading this post then I did reading stomper emails - LOL!
Kenny
Kenny Handelmans last blog post..Discrimination in School
I just deleted 100 notifications of these comments from my email :)
I'm enjoying this discussion albeit most of it is over my head. But for all that It is interesting that I recognise only 2 or 3 names here (apart from Stompernet) that regularly send stuff to my email box.
That said the 100+ other sub affiliates that repeatedly send emails to me of their latest and greatest products need to read this commentary.
[From a purchaser's viewpoint:]
I have noticed, as mentioned above several times, that even some of the once passive marketers are starting this 'only 6 more ***** for sale, and the doors close' tactic. Shoot, some of them are even trying that with products that were touted months ago.
And what's with this tactic? "After 200 personal sales and the doors will close, and after 200 MMR sales the door will close, and after 200 PLR sales the doors will close." All for the same product???? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Another thing that ALL marketers need to get right is their subscription lists. I remain on several after I have purchased products, but come on guys.. check that I've made a purchase and stop trying to sell me the same stuff again... Which as it happens I've doubled up as a purchaser several times, and it is embarrassing having to ask for a refund. But you would think that the moment my Paypal address is entered it would check against a purchaser list or something.
Yeah I know I should be more vigilant when buying, but sometimes the ad copy has changed and its not until you get the product you realise you've already got the product.
[End of purchasers viewpoint.]
BobWs last blog post..How are your little parasites doing today?
And I can't even tell what this guy, Pagan, is selling.
Thanks everyone for ALL of your opinions -- raw, uncensored, and reasoned.
When StomperNet releases a product we make an honest effort to add value to the marketplace. The GoingNatural Videos that we produce are our sincere attempt to give - and from the feedback that we receive, they seem to be having that effect.
But, many of you seem dissatisfied, so, we'll just try harder.
For those of you who have expressed a specific or personal grievance towards me or the company, please accept my sincere apology if I've offended or if there are outstanding issues that need to be resolved.
Rick, thanks for the way you've tried to moderate this thread. For the record, Rick and I have enjoyed an interesting, albeit distant relationship.
BTW Rick, you need to update your StomperNet affiliate account information. Your affiliate ID is 48.
And Michael Campbell - congratulations! You won one of the affiliate prizes! Check your email for the....
...oh, wait.
:)
And Colin "Google" McDougall - I know you didn't mean to suggest that STOMPERNET told it's newsletter subscribers to clear their cookies, right? Because we didn't - ever.
But an Affiliate did, and it was a rookie mistake on the AFFILIATES part. But it wasn't STOMPERNET as you suggest. Just to be crystal clear.
Quick question: Does anyone understand the Rich Schefren 'strategic venture' with StomperNet?
After all the hype that Rich put into it, all that seemed to happen was he offered a trial membership of his Business Growth System...and still charged $47 for it? To me, this seemed like a complete joke.
If anyone could explain how this 'strategic alliance' really works I would appreciate it. I'm about to lose respect for someone who I thought was above all this.
DOWN WITH STOMPER DOWN WITH STOMP ... oh yea we're not doing that anymore hee hee :)
I'm sincerely joking there, don't rally behind any stomper bashing. I'm just instigating.
I just think it's great that such an open conversation is going on in this industry, on this blog.
Not only that, but that it's going on with producers, contributors, insiders AND customers. That to me is the very meaning of free exchange ... if only in this particular instance and in this particular industry. It's fair, raw, honest, and balanced.
http://digg.com/tech_news/Stop_Jammin_Me_Stompe...
Christopher Floress last blog post..chris_flores: @DonnaFox sounds like another case late night pizza and big fluffy pillows
Thanks Andy, but please donate any prize, or its cash equivalent to charity. Your local homeless shelter would be great. And let's pray to God that none of us will ever have to use it.
Ed Dale Twittered this post... scrolled down, read so many comments, finally got to his... people find/re-read his post. Learn from the launch of Stompernet(or any launch for that matter)...
all of you complaining about the number of emails sent especially on launch day... you are all on the same lists[generalization, of course] and subscribed to WAY too MANY, MANY(how many...?) lists... it's no wonder you are getting bombarded and sick of it. Now I ask you: wouldn't you like to have that many people promoting you???
What do you expect? Only one person allowed to be an affiliate? Or "let's all get together and make sure we have no duplicates and then safely email our lists, we don't want to make our subscribers mad..."
Should one only promote something noone else is?
Dare I say I don't care if you unsubscribe anyways... that you are not a good subscriber? And good riddance? Naw, that wouldn't be Politically Correct... ; P
Try this: use a new email address, sign up for The 30 Day Challenge, read all the emails and follow everything that Ed tells you to do. Ignore everything else.
Why get upset with "replace your cookies"? Affiliate Marketers have been doing it for how long now?
Who's First... someone may claim to be first @ teaching/speaking about something like social media marketing - like someone proclaiming to be "THE Facebook King"(not the title he uses but it reveals how he BRANDS himself).
Think about how many times the Internet Marketing Gurus were NOT early adopters... & then suddenly, they all jumped on the proverbial band wagon... like using YouTube or Facebook. Not to brag or boast but I was on YouTube and Facebook WAY before MOST of you(how many of you reading this were on YouTube in 2006? using Facebook more then one month ago? - no, gotcha there! I was there last year...)
And think about all the people we don't know about who have been using social media all along and have translated that into awesome careers, businessess, etc.
Look @ Yanik's Underground Seminars, he has had First Time Speakers there that most of us would NEVER have known about. How many more are out there in all those different niches?
Learn from what Rick did. Include you affiliate link and promote something else while you make controversial commentary...
The #1 reason I "Hate" the Warrior Forum is because of easily bruised EGOS and everyone "having an opinion"... and all the attacks, taking things out of context, misreading, taking things way too personally... being VERY immature(I've even seen "you can't even spell 'whatever the word is' types of responses")... & all the "I, I, I" never taking into consideration that there's a person there you are talking about/talking to... maybe they need to read "How to win Friends & Influence People"...
#2 reason: buying WSOs... ; P
I LOVE the Videos from Stompernet. Who cares about the membership. Most people haven't even used the info there to do anything... go watch them again, learn and do.
Had an interesting conversation with my friend's younger brother when I was talking about how my best friend tells me about some email he's received and how he couldn't believe someone would say whatever it was in that tone... I will read the same one and explain to him that it was the exact opposite intent the person had or how he failed to read a portion of it... context...
... so my friend's bro was like... "Well, everyone expects the worst so whatever they read is going to have a negative slant to it..."(paraphrased) think he's onto something there...
And it's funny when people post and use it for blatant self promotion... and I'm sure that someone here's going to think "he's talking about me..." and then "that singular person I'm talking about - yeah you!" will post "I know you're talking about me..." Um, like you're that important...? Like, get over yourself... ; P
One issue with a launch like Stompernet is that there isn't enough time for an affiliate to test out the info contained in the membership to give their subscribers a personal success story since the site closes it's doors so soon... so by the time one has results, oops! "too late, there are no more spots, doors have closed", but you can still watch the videos, grab the free software, etc.
I would love to be able to gain access to Stompernet and the brainiacs(The Faculty) behind Stompernet.
Look at how peeved people were with Eben Pagan's launch last year... maybe even his latest one too...?
Original?
how many times have you read/heard/seen someone write/say/show something you were already doing but they were the first one that you knew of to actually reveal it publicly(read this again)? They were the 1st you knew of BUT there may have been others but you were not on their list, reading their blog, part of their social network, etc.
How many of you are not unsubscribing from these lists you subscribed to but are now practising BACN...? Most of you won't know what this is. Does this make me the King of BACN...? Are you going to tell everyone about how you first heard about this from me? This genius social media guru...? And yes, this is meant to be taken in a non-serious manner...
Nope. You may not care. You may read up on it somewhere. Maybe even blog about it and say something to the extent of "Have you heard about BACN? Well, let me be the first to tell you about it..."
Sometimes it's better not to read and get involved in posts like this one... you probably have the wrong opinion, you're probably too emotional, you're probably reading out of context, you probably love the controversy and need to get a life, you probably should unsubscribe from the person's email list you belong to who led you to this post, you're probably better off wasting your time twittering instead... ; P
And if you're easily offended or can't get that I'm making fun of what others have written and will write(including what I wrote too)... I'm sorry...? ; P
God Bless You(yes, YOU! & I'm being serious),
Yoon - "Um, I'm not addicted to Facebook... I'm on Myspace too..."
P.S. I'm not sub'ing to the follow-up comments so I won't be getting back to your comments
P.P.S. Great advice about not posting when you're at a high-emotional state... I've been there where I'm SO glad I didn't get involved in a "conversation" in a forum(can you guess which one?). Do take time to review what you are about to post. Ask yourself why you are posting it. Is it adding value? Is it personally attacking someone or tackling the actual issue at hand? Mant times things are resolved without your help. ; P
I love it when peeps are man enough(haven't seen too many women blasting one another like you guys do - look, I'm staying out of this one... ; P) to apologize - saying "I'm sorry".
P.P.P.S. Please no one beat anyone up @ the next seminar... play nice. You can shred each other apart online instead... how about some testimonials instead?
P.P.P.P.S. The problem with text is that you can't really gauge what someone it really trying to convey to you... only in person can you really know what they actually mean. Less misunderstanding... ever had it where your text message was taken completely the wrong way?
Yoon Ho Ums last blog post..Robert Scoble Interviews Twitter Founders Evan Willams and Biz Stone via Qik
I just talked to Andy Jenkins and have to say he is one heck of a guy.
Please, Rick - Let's cease this thread right now...
This conversation is OVER :- )
Rick my friend - Let's just delete this thread from your blog immediately.
Cheers to all!
But thanks for the ride.
Lots of conversation brings about an evolving, exciting, interactive space which needs not descend into madness.
For the guy who asked, listen to Eben Pagan, and with all the subtle and not so subtle psychological triggers aside (like the scarcity and time-constraints, he delivers an amazing gift, his own experience - far beyond the "free line" -- he has the real deal, listen to everything he says.
Stompernet is fun, organized, collaborative, innovative and generous with free counseling and direction and tools and truth. The faculty is a wonder.Resources and archiving of all the evolving technology.
Jack Humphrey is breaking ground and keeping us laughing.ASC really delivers...It all takes time, and focus. ASC is the choice for me.
Howie's a hoot, a bit wild but shakes it up and reminds us that we are the only limitation to our own success. Here's a real community that is growing and getting smarter.
Rick, thanks for the opportunity, keep it chill and remember, the doors are open now, walk on through.
Linda Lupowitzs last blog post..Promoting Your Small Business Using Ezines
Thank you so much for your support and helping to make this post by far the most linked, digges, and commented post I've ever created.
Today I went back through all these comments and realized I'd been unfair and unkind in allowing the discussion to degenerate into occasional Stompernet bashing.
Caught up in the momentum, (and, frankly unfamiliar with moderating such a crazy volume of posts), I failed to use prudent judgement in stopping personal attacks - about which even the original posters came back in and apologized.
A clue.
This brings to a close the discussion here - and to remind us all that the POINT was:
1. Reducing email overload
2. My personal gripes about product launches
3. Trying to help my readers focus on activity vs opportunity and prevail in achieving success.
Thanks,
Rick Butts
Are we done spanking Stompernet yet??????
who's next??
So what if StomperNet and their affiliates send you a ton of launch stuff. It only lasts a month or so. Learn/Swipe File what U can from the "Copy" and move on.
By the way, my partner and I a.k.a. "2 Older Dudes" always sell actual products, no "How 2 Methods". We do Online Security Services and sell or recommend only highly researched and verified online security products.
We are not "Civilians" like you folks but we still like you!
Really, Honestly, & Truly Liked Scotts' Report.
All The Best: Mitchell Dominguez
I vibrantly applaud you for remaining interactive in the feed Rick.
As you are laying things out and reacting to the feedback you are collecting here in your blog community, I expect I will see your Quality shown by following this thread here that you have created.
I want to digest the interesting comments of the entourage you have manifested here Rick and get a hint of their Quality as well and to allow them to peer into mine.
Many of these people chatting here are my friends as well on facebook and myspace, etc.
Through this opportunity you have set up here Rick, people are being attracted here for a common purpose, to answer the questions you put out... into the Universe / Internet / Twitterverse... so that you can connect with people on a personal level all over the world, sharing knowledge, contacts and resources while evolving.
I will write to you frequently as I am inspired.
Monique Briand
http://moniquebriand.com
Founder... http://ConnectedFM.com
Last year I listened to yet another newbie strikes it rich interview. An interesting point was that the guy had an unusually high response from his list. Neither interviewer nor interviewee had a real explanation. I re-listened and realized that it was due to where his list had come from. By luck, his list came from sources other than the same old tired IM subscription junkies. (Me included -- but -- I never got his original promo, I was subbed to to a later affiliate) A-hah! A "virgin" list. Better results from preaching to a new choir! This bit of understanding (and it was free), was further reinforced when I got at least 2 dozen cookie cutter promos for the same thing, some even had the same bonuses. Nothing personal, but I would not have learned this if I hadn't been subscribed to everything. LOL
BTW, I'll be subscribing to this as well, now that I know it's here.
SM
Just from reading this post I gained a lot of new insights so it was not time wasted, I discovered some new people who I should be paying attention to and filed away some useful titbits for later use. I also got to participate in what will probably become a legendary bog post and can add my comment alongside some of my more famous internet mentors.
Its also been a bit of a history lesson from some of the people who have been around a lot longer than me and has revealed some of the ugly rifts and camps that seem to be present in this industry. Is it just money or jealousy that creates this?
I don't know much about you Rick but as you seem to have an interesting blog that I will investigate further, I am sure there is something I can learn from you. If only to understand the tactic of posting something controversial and then reaping the benefits of all the extra traffic and exposure you get for doing this.
The only two people I've found that I trust (mainly because I've bought their products and were roundly impressed by them) are Terry Dean and John Reese.
I don't resell their products and I'm not an affiliate for them. I just use what I learned from them to help me promote and sell my own products and services.
Value for the money. That's a pretty rare thing in the "Internet Marketing" arena.
marc in Chinas last blog post..CEOs in China - East vs West
I realize that this is probably no longer monitored but I just wanted to put one last post in here. This is all about copy writing. It seems that all the best copy writers are now in the Internet Marketing business because there only seem to be two places where such talents are valued. Either the direct mail business or the Internet Marketing business. It's a shame.
I've worked hard to try and explain to business owners the value of strong copy writing and they just don't get it. Every day I hear, "I can write. Why should I pay someone to do that?"
And yet every day, Internet Marketers prove the value of good copy writing. Any thoughts on how to translate that to the education of business owners or am I wasting my breath?
you missed the action here by several months so I'm sure you aren't really subscribed to my feed.
we won't miss you here - and I think you know why.
Rick
Copy pervades email, autoresponder messages, optins, offers, sales letters, in fact anyone who doesn't use good copy principles every step along the way is missing out on giving themselves a raise.
Rick
I was wondering if anyone had tried Michelle MacPhearsons product and got the results that she has had without Google cracking the shits and banning them for doing sneaky things?
IS it legit? Will it work long term? Is it just an overnight success or will it increase my income fromnow on?
I won't ask her because A) I'll get a support ticket and no one will ever help or respond to me and B) If I did get a response it would probably be what she thinks I want to hear.
I want to know the truth. Guru's shit me off. I just want the damn truth!!
Cheers,
Amy
You ask about Michelle MacPhearsons product and I assume you mean tubinator, which is software for automating the friend request and comment process on you tube.
I have tubinator. I have had mixed results with it. One REALLY important thing about using it is to use the "time delay" feature found in options. This spaces out your friend requests at whatever length of time you specify.
In my experience, you have to put the time delay on relatively high numbers...9 minutes to 12 minutes between requests. Anything less than that and you tube will make you stop after just a few requests.
I never got banned or anything, but I was afraid I would.
Having to go so slowly sort of defeats the purpose of using the software but not 100%. It has still helped me increase the number of "friends" I have on you tube but you can not get a million friends overnight.
I sometimes let tubinator run while I am asleep and at the high time delay, it will send out about 50 requests while I snooze.
My you tube videos still do not have very high ratings though, but it has helped some. With 60,000 video uploads a day, it is very hard to get noticed on you tube.
Tubinator was fairly inexpensive and I do not regret buying it at all.
I hope this answers you question in a fair, balanced and honest way. My experiences do not necessarily reflect anyone else's experiences but I would imagine my experiences are typical.
Lorraine Grula
Lorraine Grulas last blog post..OVERCOMING CAMERA ANXIETY
Teena in Australia here - after reading your post I downloaded Scott's book and holy moley! A breath of fresh air!!
I did the guru-unsub about a year ago, and recently found I'd subscribed to a whole chain of others, so this was a good whack on the side of the head.
Scott's hit the nail on the head - let's build relationships with our clients, give them worthwhile information, products and services, and then nurture them by being friendly and honest.
This is the only way to go to build a sustainable business adventure.
Ciao for now
Teena!
UberGuru@mybonusisbiggerthanyourbonus.com
Cracked me up!
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Regarding the original topic: Sometimes, when I say something and someone disagrees with me, it gives me an opportunity to assess and digest NEW INFORMATION.
At one time I found value in subscribing to different newsletters. But, now I need to stay focused on my project(s) at hand. I don't need new information, I need to implement with what I already know. Later on, I will need to gather some of the archived information when I ready to implement it.
<abbr>California Jerrys last blog post..Article Writing: Are You Stuck, Can’t Think Of What To Write About?</abbr>