Actually, I was wondering myself that question yesterday after hearing so much about Traffic Secrets 2.0 and questioning if there was really any information left that hasn't already been shared in one form or another via various mediums (a lot of them free).
I love John Reese but I'm going to pass on this one for now. I'm sure he's got some killer information in there, but my head won't explode if I don't buy it, even though some people want you to believe so.
That's actually a good point Cassie. I'm SURE there's some good information in there.
There's also some excellent information all over the web but you get to keep your 4 $100 bills in your pocket.
At this point - the reality is - are we using what we already know from social marketing, linking, writing articles, before we invest in more knowledge on the subject?
Traffic generation just takes some ideas and time.
Thanks! Rick
@CoachDeb
· 1 year ago
Shucks!
I should've named my published book "Secrets of Online Persuasion" something sexier like "Traffic Whore" eh? Shucks!
Hey - wait a minute... you're not calling ME a whore for having the 1st published book on social / new media marketing - are you?!
On your Website Traffic Lab you mention Colin McDougall’s Constant Conversation being a great resouce for getting tons of traffic and it, too, is FREE. Yes, I agree - his VEO is a very wise and future proof approach, and I have also actually followed this advice.
But I also just had an email from him extolling the virtues of TrafficSecrets2.
No-one is immune you see. :-)
Michael Sherriff
· 1 year ago
A man after my own heart, Rick, you say what everyone else feels and is thinking. I get so p**ssed off with these whores. They don't actually care too much about the product really - just their 50% cut of the profits.
In March 2007 I got so fed up of the constant barrage of emails for the same product from different marketers that I blogged about it and got a very warm response. Rick, if it's OK with you, here is a link to the archive of those posts which make for entertaining reading.
Rick, agree in concept. But must disagree on the terms.
The subjects you target are not "whores." That would imply they are victims. They are known as "List Pimps."
List Pimps are one of the more nefarious members of the Black Triad. Dangerous, abusive, and full of empty promises their job is to whore YOU (as their subscriber) out for their profit and pleasure.
Looks like this is gonna be Whore Week here on the RickButts.com blog.
I didn't name anyone - for a reason.
YOU have to decide who fits the description here.
On the Website Traffic Lab website I've listed Colin McDougall's free Constant Conversaton ebook - and it was pointed out to me that Colin was promoting John Reese's course.
This is part of the great paradox.
Howie Schwartz is promoting John's course - and I follow Howie closely and he has already put out tons of great information, courses, and tools for getting traffic.
I'm hardly immune to promoting someone's products for a profit, but when these giant launch days go down with TONS of bonus wars - it's hard not to wonder what is really going on?
Rick
Jack Humphrey
· 1 year ago
Rick,
I really wish you wouldn't have put ME in the center of your next hurricane!
For the record, until this post anyway, me and John are buds. My link for this comment points to one of my TS2 posts on Friday Traffic Report.
I think what people need to do to weigh this launch is 2 things:
1. Look at John's track record and the respect he commands around the web and the material included in this version of Traffic Secrets and decide for themselves, as John wants you to, if the course is right for them and their experience level.
2. Decide which "whore" is going to get your money for buying if you decide to buy. This is accomplished, I believe, by going through the affiliate link you think deserves the credit. I am almost positive John is using "last cookie" which means the last person to send you gets the credit.
Big launches and the value of John's product are two different things and should be considered separately in my opinion.
I might have one myself one day! :)
Brennan Kingsland
· 1 year ago
Dear Rick,
I'm certain any product John Reese puts out there will have valuable info., besides he's kinda cute.
But you have really won my heart with your comment . . . "Does this course contain real "secrets" or, is it possible, I can learn everything I need to learn, at a pace I can actually absorb and implement it - another way, for less money or free?"
I also love all the info I've gotten over the last year from Jack Humphrey, but I wish I'd learned sooner 1)FREE info is available on the internet, and 2) Buying and paying for training, good or bad, does me absolutely NO GOOD if it's just downloaded to my 'puter and never used.
Even though I'm a technically-inept, drowning-in-an-information-backlog, wannabe internet millionaire, I finally figured-out that all these big launches are just too much too soon. They can't ALL be as fabulous as they are reputed to be.
Thanks for saying it like it is! Now I can stop wondering where I'll ever find $397 to learn from the "Master" (who really is cute)!
John Reese is more than cute - he's a buff stud muffin who's rich and famous (infamous?) and touring Europe while this launch runs on autopilot.
Kudos!
He's also a brilliant student of the game of Internet marketing and imminently qualified to talk about all phases of Internet marketing.
My basic yap here is the relentless whoring out of bonuses to get you to buy something so the sender can make a buck - combined with the whole launch hype.
What is really interesting is that the stuff in Traffic Secrets 1.0 is so powerful that I use technqiues from it every day as part of my fundamental approach to marketing online.
Rick
Colin "Google" McDougall
· 1 year ago
Hey Rick,
It's rare that I get on board with the Big Gun Guru marketers....
John Reese's Traffic Secrets 2.0 is one of those rare occassions....
What I find refreshing about John is the fact that his affiliate manager sent me a digital version of the course...
That is bloody rare with the guru club and....
from sounds of things from John's affiliate manager that this product will actually be on the market and for sale without the scarcity tactic of the "doors are slamming shut"
Anyway I do really like John's offer with Traffic Secrets 2.0....
No...I personally didn't find anything earth-shattering in the product but it is certainly useful information for those that need to learn the business...
Well back to being a marketing whore....or am I a marketing pimp....whatever the case....back to making some cash :)
Colin "Google" McDougall
· 1 year ago
Hey Rick,
It's rare that I get on board with the Big Gun Guru marketers....
John Reese's Traffic Secrets 2.0 is one of those rare occassions....
What I find refreshing about John is the fact that his affiliate manager sent me a digital version of the course...
That is bloody rare with the guru club and....
from sounds of things from John's affiliate manager that this product will actually be on the market and for sale without the scarcity tactic of the "doors are slamming shut"
Anyway I do really like John's offer with Traffic Secrets 2.0....
No...I personally didn't find anything earth-shattering in the product but it is certainly useful information for those that need to learn the business...
Well back to being a marketing whore....or am I a marketing pimp....whatever the case....back to making some cash :)
Mike Cunningham
· 1 year ago
Well Rick,
I have to say I'm not surprised. This afternoon I predicted someone would take this shot. I was commenting about it on Mark Ress's Ustream.tv show this afternoon. Good Luck with your efforts, this will certainly bring the Backlinks out of the woodwork.
I am surprised that you didn't know that John has priced this offering at $397, which is $600 less than the original 1.0 version. That's exactly the "couple of hundred dollars" you mentioned. Considering it will probably contain updated materials on things from V1, it should be worth that much,especially to anybody who didn't purchase V1.
Now I'm not saying to buy this or even if it's a good deal, just trying to provide my fair analysis. There are many people searching for answers in this market. Just as there are many, many good people freely giving of themselves and their experience, you included. The responses above reflect a few of them, Jack Humphrey, J.P. Micek and Coachdeb (Deborah Cole Micek) are aeasy to spot. I'm sure others will chime in with their comments, like Sherman Hu, Mark Ress, Michelle Trent, Ed Dale, Isabella Murphy (nichelady)and a bunch more. (sorry if I left you off the list, whoever.)
As for where the money will flow to, hopefully to all of us. People genuinely need Internet Marketing information, and those that can afford to pay for it, there are many options. Yes some victimize the unwary, but even that kind of learning has always been around. Its known as "The School of Hard Knocks." There will always be some who feel there is no other way. Also there will be some who feel if it doesn't cost tons, its worthless.
My opinion is free, no strings attached. Wonder what it's really worth?
Your title is a little misleading Rick. I sort of expected to see a list of 12 names.
I've actually gone trough a training guide that covered much of the materials in the course, and like TS 1, it's an encyclopedia (catalog) of techniques, with some fairly detailed instructions.
Granted, everything is not news to me, but there is enough new ideas that I feel comfortable recommending TS 2, and even offering a bonus. I assume that not everyone is adept at the social networking sites and other methods of traffic generation as I am.
Jack does put out some incredible information.
willie
Paul McIntosh
· 1 year ago
As always Rick you've thrown a stick at the hornets nest. I never know whether to value these types of stirrings as more link bait or something of actual value. Of course you're saying what a lot of folks are feeling. Good for you for stepping up to the plate. Fact of the matter is folks, you signed up to somebodies list in exchange for information. If you don't like the fact that you signed up for marketing information and "secrets" and this marketer is actually marketing to you, OMG, then go to the bottom of the email, unsubscribe and carry on with your life. If people would spend their time learning and putting into actual practice some of the free information available all over the interwebs, there would be much less whining. Just one man's opinion. ;-)
Never, of course, would I dare do such a thing. :)
Putting John Reese personally aside, I want to take this opportunity to whisper a message to all these big-time internet millionaires who no longer flood my inbox.
Please... do not condescend to me and say in your "news" (marketing) letters that you give one rat's patootie about me and my business. Go ahead and be honest. Use this copy instead: (You have my permission.)
Hey Sucker, I was sitting here scratching my balls and drooling over my bank account. I have ten Mercedes and you don't. (I hope you at least have a loaf of bread.) Check out my new eBook, "B.S SECRETS EXPOSED!"
@Lorraine - LOL! I can't believe you actually wrote "I was sittin' here scratchin' my BLEEP! LOL I'm seriously falling out of my chair laughing!
It does illustrate the casual nature of the "SEND" (incl + affiliate link) as a non-thought for cash reward.
@Willie Crawford - I KNOW you expected to see a list of 12 names - and maybe we will actually generate such a list.
The main idea was that there actually are about 12 of the worst offenders - we can all make our own lists.
ONCE AGAIN: it's the nature of the marketing methodology and the unabashadly shameful trotting out of bonuses to capture a buck from the same flock that irks me - not John's course.
It's always a risk of offending people when you try to be funny so let me say FOR THE RECORD, I have no doubt John's product is full of incredible info.
There are MANY internet marketers that I greatly admire.
I, however, insist upon being incorrigible despite an actual brain that often tell me to pipe down!
I can't say I'm opposed to a product that teaches these "secrets" but totally agree that there aren't many secrets if you've been around a while.
John Reese does sell to a market of people who have never seen all the great stuff you teach, or really been an online business. So if someone buys this, implements whatever he teaches, I'm sure it's far more valuable that many other things they could do with the money.
However, the hype by the in crowd with whatever "new Internet Secret of the Week" comes out gets overblown in the search for short term profits.. and makes me wonder what they would do to get steady traffic, leads and sales if they weren't playing this game.
Would a real business pay out 50$ on every product they introduce? There are better ways.
Helen
· 1 year ago
Rick, thank you SO MUCH. Everything that you said here is so much true!
Victoria
· 1 year ago
Hey Rick
couldn't agree more with what you said especially...
"Does the person sending this to me actually give a darn how I come up with the money for this "must have" product - and whether it truly has a positive impact on my success - or if it is just another big box of stuff I will not be able to digest - putting me further behind in my goals?"
And I made this comment just new from being a victim of another high priced "mentoring" program which I am not allowed to ask questions and where questions are answered with, "Do you want to make money or not?" and "I have clients who paid me $50,000 and happy"...
Any attempt to ask questions will be rebutted with, "just follow my instructions and do what I say"...
I recently posted in my blog why people get 'scammed' and I think one of the reasons is fear. Fear of not having this information that may just transform their life.
Sorry for the rant as I had a really bad day fighting with the so called mentor. I had a good feeling I am kissing my hard earned money goodbye.
Why is it that people never learn from bad purchases???
Seth Garrison
· 1 year ago
When I first read this, there was 0 comments. Now I come back and boom. So where does the 12 whores come into this? Do you mean 12 affiliates or are you going to do 12 posts?
The part about John changing his mind on SM is a good point but like you say things and people change and like all things on the net it seems to happen at lightening speeds.
Wonder how many you'll get for this one Rick
Judy Kettenhofen
· 1 year ago
My favorite comment? Jack Humphreys
Now, let's get down and dirty.
You said: nternet marketing whores dressed in skimpy outfits (shocking subject lines)
Oh, you mean like, "12 Biggest Whores in Internet Marketing"? :)
I'm still trying to figure out who the 12 are -- but maybe the inconsistency of your statement to your actions (headline, as stated above) blinded me to them. (Hey, I'll admit to being pulled by your headline.)
Now, was there, um, satisfaction when I got here?
Delivery on the promise?
Or is it just a way to slipstream into all the hoopla on John's promotion.
It's not a bad technique (riding the slipstream) -- but to point fingers at the person who is unintentionally bringing you this traffic is a bit disingenuous, don't you think?
I mean, if all your traffic techniques are so wonderful, why are you resorting to this sort of controversy to stir up more?
Surely, at the end of your free information, there's a market funnel? Listbuilding? You surely would be a poor marketer, in my estimation, not to do so.
What's the problem with people offering bonuses? I don't get it.
Now -- yes, it would be poor form if a marketer offered again what they promised to never offer again. I admit to not being a careful peruser of people's offers at the moment. But usually I believe the offers read something like "I've never offered this before." (And if I hear Jeff Walker use that phrase one more time it will drive me to distraction, LOL. Luv ya Jeff, but it's da twuth.)
If people want to read my blog, they can check it out at my site at NextDay-Copy.com (actually, I have 2; one for copywriting and one for Ed Dale's 30 Day Challenge.) I'm here to make a comment, not to get a backlink.
Colin "Google" McDou
· 1 year ago
Hey Folks,
Rick certainly is doing a great job on creating conversations....
Lorraine - I sense a touch of bitterness to your post... Don't be bitter but rather observe those that make lots of cash and consider those emails as some free email marketing training...
The tactics used by the "gurus" are a fabulous marketing lessons...
Now if you take the same tactics and use them in marketing to industries (that are not so bitter and jaded) other than internet business stuff you will be thrilled with the results...
I always find it somewhat amusing that people will spend $10's or $100's of thousands on university education but when it comes to learning how to make piles of cash on the internet for less than $400 bucks there is such resistance and lashback over it....
Come on folks that's an incredibly CHEAP education!!!
OK... I gotta go have a scratch now :)
Steve Markowski
· 1 year ago
So Rick,
Did I get this right: It's ok to sell a load of crap if it's only a couple of hundred bucks and/or if your heart is pure?
Maybe there's a moral balance in offering a worthwhile bonus with a questionable product. (or vice versa.)
Wow. Sorry Rick, but I really do think you should review the course before you make such specific comments about it. I am - in fact, here's picture proof:
(That's me, the binder being the transcripts for the TS2 videos)
Traffic Secrets 2.0 is not just an info-product packed with your usual traffic techniques that will be "outdated by December". You’ll get lifetime updates to the course, private coaching & mastermind community access, the web-based action tracker system and more. So you are investing in “direct access” to John Reese and in your business long-term.
Granted, its not for everyone. Its not for the person who cant take the *time* to invest in the course - and the time to also take action on what they learn from it. In my opinion, its also not for someone who doesnt yet have a website, or hasnt chosen their niche market yet.
I'm trying to make those points loud and clear in my review of TS2. And I am offering no bonuses. I've always given honest reviews (and plenty of negative ones, at that) and tried to help my readers make the right decision for *them*.
I am a seasoned internet marketer, and have been working online almost as long as John Reese (12th year) -- and while I know much of what he covers, I've gotten great value out of the course already.
I'm with you on some points, mind you. You might recall my recent post titled The Current State of Internet Marketing. Just wanted to clarify a few points regarding my stance, and the course itself.
Kevin Riley
· 1 year ago
Rick
I love it. Myself, if I see a whore offering a condo on Maui or a black Hummer as a bonus, will actually consider becoming a John. Other than that, I just ignore the inbox glut that comes with these launches.
Whores take notice. Better spell out the condo or Hummer in your subject line, or I'll miss it. I'm driving real fast down your boulevard, and it will take a very sexy outfit to get me to slow down.
Susanne F
· 1 year ago
@Lorraine can we be friends? I love your imagination.
2 years ago there was a similar launch and that made me unsubscribe from all the lists. I got tired of seeing the same text and "buy - buy".
The products are probably fine but I am doing well without them.
Btw Rick you write Christmas 2007 you mean 2008? Do I win a prize, the first to notice it ;-) ?
You're unabashedly link baiting to keep your blog alive.
When you step back and look at it in the broadest terms, you are just another sooted pot then; waving your IM arms to make a buck, while calling the kettle black.
Hmmm there was a bible story about a tainted crowd member pointing out the whore...
Do you really want sensationalized negative controversy to be your legacy, or even the defibrillator for your blog?
Mr Butts, I have tough standards: I've promoted 3 items in 3 years. (No bonuses-I am helpful instead)
But there are some very excellent people who will offer bonuses, whom you're insulting.
Good Health to You, Ed
Scott Boulch
· 1 year ago
Rick,
You and I both know that its time for the final solution!
I personally don't care what happens and I'm ready for the ultimate scorched earth strategy, and you know what I mean!
My fortune will not come from the pockets of Internet Marketers, so I say we Push The Big Red Button and do them all a favor and take down every gravity suit wearing pig in the process.
Poison Pill time baby!
Hell I'll do it just for shits and giggles!
Ready..............?
Let's launch it now!
MUUUhhaaahhaahahhaa
Dr.Mani
· 1 year ago
Hmm... should I change specialities and offer the cure for digital AIDS, instead?
Nice. I already have the cred in the IM niche!
Hmm... Maybe I'll even ask the Gates Foundation for a grant ;-)
All success Dr.Mani
P.S. Hey, Rick, I hope you aren't including those who are promoting "Safe 'Traffic Secrets' Sex" in your rant?! :)
P.P.S. Reading carefully, you'll notice Rick's NOT against TS2 - he's against those hyping it to the sky and lacing their affiliate offer with ridiculous bonuses! (Just pointing it out, in case anyone missed it)
P.P.P.S. - Uh-oh, just noticed Rick had clarified that in an earlier comment! Oh well, bears repeating anyway.
Lorraine Grula
· 1 year ago
Trust me Colin dear, I am the LEAST bitter person on the planet.
I just like to point out the absurdities before us. And there are many! I become dizzy watching it all!
Marketing is something many people love to hate but it's the cornerstone of our world. FOR EXAMPLE: We've all poked fun at the ginzu knife commercials, but the dude made a bloody fortune. However, I'm not going waste two minutes watching the slicing and dicing demo for the zillionth time.
I've got better things to do.
One could argue that the 12 biggest whores of internet marketing are really the twelve hardest working, best connected and most successful internet marketers.
The point is, marketing is hype. Hype gets old. Tons of hype gets really old. Wasting time reading redundant hype is not a good way to run a business. You'll never get anything productive done.
frank kern
· 1 year ago
I, for one, am a slut. Not a whore. Sluts don't get paid. And because I offered my bonus to EVERYONE who buys John's course ...regardless of which link they use, I am not getting paid.
Therefore, slutty and proud.
frank kern
· 1 year ago
rick I forgot to commend you for Iceberg Slim reference. Well done.
Jason Moffatt
· 1 year ago
Did you hear about the 2 Mexicans that walked into a bar to order Traffic Secrets?
Judging by the comments here - I make the following observations:
1 - Many people scan a blog post without reading it - and comment on what they infer it to mean - inaccurately. It's tough to respond to a comment about what was not said in the first place.
2 - Some people read every word and over-analyze the meaning and inject their inferences all the same.
3 - Some people understand that as Freud once said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." I love these people.
4 - Some people are confused because there is no list of 12 names. I was hoping my smarter readers would pick up on the irony.
5 - Some people are so darn clever that can make hilariously funny, and fun, journeys out of my recklessness.
This includes today's winners:
* Moffatt and Kern, a dandy presidential ticket if you ask me
* Lorraine Grula - a woman who actually had an Ebay ad on her blog, for a turd that had a striking resemblance to Dick Cheney's face. Is that "stink bait?"
* Dr. Mani - proving that you don't have to be a Southern Causasian to take a pun and run with it!
*** To all my dear doubting readers who think I'm a one-trick-pony who racks my brain each day for a way to manufacture link bait from the latest launch, 2 thoughts:
A. I really do simply make observations on the "parade" in front of me - as you can probably tell by the posts and videos no one comments on.
B. If you CAN get people to comment a lot on your blog - isn't that kind of the point?
Love to all - and to all a good night, Rick
Debra THAT Public Domain Diva
· 1 year ago
hmmmm.... if I buy something from a guru (whore)... that makes me a John??
I don't look like a John... I don't feel like a John... I don't walk like a John... I don't even scratch by [non existent] brass ones...
So, in reality... I am not a John.
I have, in fact, been a John many times. Here is the ugly truth:
In the beginning the bonuses and the hype and the fear of loss work. (on the John's of the world) Why? Because, they have not yet been jaded.
In the end, (I don't care how much you defend your whore-selves) it will come back to bite you in the butt. (Yup... I probably intended that pun)
You know who you are. We may have signed up to "get your information", but we did not sign up so that we could feel like a dumb John.
The fact that you don't "really" care that we think the bonus hype, the fear of loss hype, the never told secrets hype and the "I"m so rich hype", is B.S. - just irritates me.
So... go ahead and defend yourselves. Give away all your great free content. Tell all of us to stop trying to sell to the IM industry and to go after the "unprepared" niches.
There are bonus products and then there are really good bonus products. But... do I really need a bonus? Why isn't the product good enough to sell on it's own?
Oh... I know, it's worked so well before... why wouldn't you just keep doing it?
Do I give bonus products? Yes... I give bonuses when someone purchase one of my products. Am I a marketing whore? Nope. I don't sell OPP by laying on the sugar and piling up bonuses.
I give my own bonus with my own product, because I know it's of high value to the consumer.
If I think someone else's product is good enough to promote to my list... they will buy the product (or not) based on my recommendation. Not because I blew sunshine up their......
This conversation assumes whores are BAD. I contend nothing in life is all good or all bad and the hypocrisies of conventional wisdom and stereotypes are easily revealed.
For example, we often judge success by money earned. So if whores are "bad" why do whores make significantly more $$$ than virtuous schoolteachers?
So answer me that one huh?
Does this mean the free market says sex is more valued than intellectualism? Help, the sordid facts have thrown me even deeper into the cynicism abyss!!!!
For some reason the blog (semiologic pro) is not allowing any posts to post unless I approve them.
So until I re-emerge around 11 am MST today - your posts will probably queue up - but fear not - I vow to leave no post behind!
Your strange little friend, Rick
PS: Stumble, Tweet, or otherwise bookmark or link to me and shoot me a note about it - I'll follow you around like a love-crazed puppy!
Alice Seba
· 1 year ago
That bastard John (yes, the Sweetie said bastard...after all, when in Rome...hey wait, isn't John in Rome??!) isn't giving out any prizes to his affiliates.
As a whoring insider, I can tell you this launch is very low key. He's giving us the nuts and bolts. Those are going all wild giving away their children, wives and zillion dollar software and seminar recordings are doing it all on their own volition.
Thanks for keeping the product-crazed IM public in check, Rick.
Nicely done; plays into a lot of human emotions and general feelings around the Internet – which is certainly reflected by the number of comments from “big-fish” names.
First, I echo something Jack Humphrey and Dr. Mani already mentioned – the need to separate the quality of John’s product from the constant barrage of big launches. (this was for the careless readers who missed this - but somehow got to reading the 1027 comment to the original post ;-))
And while I agree with you that most information on traffic can be found for free (or nearly free) with a bit of research, I have to say there is huge value in having it conveniently organized in one cohesive course – just the value of time saved searching for this info alone is probably worth the price.
In terms of secrets… Well, everything is a secret to us – until we learn it. Here is my (slightly different than yours) take on this – John is known to test things like crazy. The guy lives to apply, analyze, tweak, and apply again different marketing strategies. So if I can get the discoveries based on thousands of hours of his research and testing and experience condensed into one course for a few hundred bucks – that’s a pretty reasonable deal. I think I would have to an absolute idiot not to find at least one thing in there - even if it’s just a new take on an old strategy – that I haven’t thought of before and will be able to use and get more than my money’s worth.
But what really gets me is today’s general attitude of “victimhood” most people buy into (and your post plays into it too!) I get sick and tired of people complaining all the time about being (over)promoted too – especially after they 1) originally opted into the lists with a pretty darn good idea that they will be sent promotions (why else would it be free!?), and 2) have an opt-out link at the bottom of each email.
Instead of groaning and moaning about how the marketers get rich by pitching you all the time on all the “newest and latest must have info and tools” why not simply stop supporting them? Instead of getting all pissed off and raising hell about “market molesters” (sorry, Coach Deb, it’s just such a great term to use here) why not simply remove them from your inboxes and giving them another red cent of your money?
Whatever happened to personal discernment? Do the marketers have some sort of magic potion that makes everyone buy crap they don’t need? Last I checked there isn’t a system out there yet that automatically whisks credit cards out of your wallet while you’re are asleep – or did I miss out on this new gizmo? Because on all my sites someone has to actually punch in the credit numbers to make the purchase. And, I’m assuming (maybe incorrectly) that since they have that credit card they also have a brain – and ability to make independent decisions.
Oh, one more thing… Just as a total disclosure… I don’t own Johns’ TS2 and I’m not promoting it. Frankly, I probably won’t even buy it because it’s not something I’m looking for right now.
Oh yeah, there is one other thing…I grossly oversimplified and generalized some pretty complex ideas here… But hey – so did your original post. After all, that’s what sells… OK, now I guess I better press “post” before reading this, regretting I ever wrote this, and deleting the whole thing… because it’s all for the sake of being devil’s advocate here.
Thanks, Rick, for stimulating this discussion… and I’m still looking for the 12 whores! Oh, and did you mention cigars? Where?
Smiles, Adam
Rick
· 1 year ago
To Adam Urbanski (above)
Hey Adam, thanks for your well thought out comment.
I want to reply on one issue you mentioned - because I think it invites me to clarify and I didn't think of this until now.
"victimhood - and complaining about being marketed to"
Your point is well taken - and I am leading the complaints.
I think that if I could state this all another way - it would be like this.
Dear Marketing Kingpin,
Yes, I got on your list because you offered me something for (free?) that required me to give you my email address and confirm you could.
I realize that you would market to me - and I'm cool with that.
I just would like to ask you to treat me with respect, and cut out the B.S. - and really think twice about what you send me.
Don't mail me every day.
Try including some good content without making me optin to yet another list - remember - we're already communicating?
And please PLEASE if you are going to give away that pricey product I bought a few months ago - to your new friends - just for buying your buddy's product now - consider how that makes me feel?
And maybe, try reading 1000 True Fans and think long term instead of just about delivery rates, open rates, conversion rates, and unsubscribe rates.
Thanks sincerely,
Your List
Adam Urbanski
· 1 year ago
Rick, I was about to hit the sack but I noticed your response and just had to read it!
Holy crap. I think it's better than the original post (at last for me) because it exposes the real problem. Frankly, your last comment should be a required reading (and discussion topic) for all budding online entrepreneurs (especially affiliate marketers ;-))
Colin "Google" McDou
· 1 year ago
Hey Folks,
When I wrote my free marketing report entitled "Constant Conversation" and yeah, my upsell to "Cashflow Conversation" I quoted the one and only Rick Butts in both books about creating online conversations....
Notice the number of comments Rick generates???
Yeah, there are always tons of comments on his blog....
Why?
Because Rick is a BRILLIANT guy....
Now come on.... Please... Oh please come comment in my blog :)
Yes, Rick does stir controversy....
But...
Rick DOES NOT stir controversy for the sake of controversy....
I have stayed at Rick's house and had some of the most amazing conversations with him....
Rick is WAY smarter than anybody gives him credit for...
If you doubt Rick Butts brilliance I suggest that you grab a copy of his book right now....
I have been reading The Safari Chronicles Volume One from Rick and have to say it is VERY thought provoking....
Rick you ROCK my friend....
Oh yeah......I will very likely be in Denver at the latest in December to see the Broncos Vs. Bills....
Interesting story there... I used to be a Bills fan...
I let that go as last season as my father was passing away from Leukemia was a Green Bay fan.... I briefly jumped on board to cheer with my Dad for the Green Bay Packers....
OK...No need to bore you all with my personal pangs....
But, I did let go of the Buffalo Bills as I spent the last night of my father's life watching the Green Bay Packers and my father's football hero, Brett Favre, take a Monday Night game on the last drive.....
Yeah... I saw my father cheer in a very weak voice for Brett as he threw a hail mary in overtime on the first drive for the game winning touch down....
OK... There is how I let go of cheering for a losing team....
Now back to our story....
I spent a few weeks in Denver to do some business... See my favorite rock band, Rush, play at The Red Rocks Amphitheater....
And as a result I absolutely fell in love with the city of Denver...
Heck... I paid $600k for my house in the suburbs of Vancouver BC and for that price I could live in the elitist communities of Denver.... Where here in the Greater Vancouver area I live only in the upper middle class neighborhoods...
Anyway....The Bills are playing the Broncos in Denver in December... One of my hockey team mates has tickets to that game and asked me to go....soooooo....
Rick, the latest I will be in Denver is December.....
But.... Have truck.... Have travel trailer.... Am going to be traveling....
Hmmmm.... Denver.... This summer.... Heck yeah... I think so :)
Colin "Google" McDou
· 1 year ago
Scott....
Almost missed your comment....
The question still remains....Do you like Rush :)
They rocked Red Rocks like nobody could....
Was fun chatting with you during your opening... Get in touch with me Scott...
Cheers....
Now everybody following this post go get some inspirational tunes from one of the greatest rock icons.... That's Rush folks...
Get:
1. Limelight 2. Red Barchetta 3. Driven 4. Tom Sawyer 5. Grand Designs 6. New World Man
OK, I could go on here.... But do definitely get the song Grand Designs....
Wait..... OK, I get inspired by music....
What and who inspires you????
Go forth and get inspired....
Inspiration is the key to making tons of freakin' cash....
Nuff of the rant now.... Scott.... Get in touch with me....
Ben
· 1 year ago
"Wow!" Ivé just read all these comments on John's product and I'm wondering what gives here? Being new to the internet and all there seems to be a lot of bitching going on here that sounds like sower grapes or envy to me.
I fear for my desire for an internet business but on the other hand a few of the balanced comments gave me confidence theres a chance I'll succeed.
On the out side looking in.:-)
The Story Ideas Virtuoso
· 1 year ago
Rick,
Your "Dear Marketing Kingpin" comment resonated with me. Lately I've done more unsubscribing than ever before for this very reason. I hate being emailed daily with offer after offer. Whatever happened to getting an email with actual content? Or at least a LINK to actual content?
Note to self: Remember what this feels like and NEVER do it to my list.
Bonuses just get you on another list, so I'm making sure to stick with John's idea of a clean, no backend, no upsell, launch and upping the ante with no BONUS promotion. :)
I am off to start a Warrior thread entitled "Who has the worst bonus for TS?"
I'm sure it will be picked up in the engines and thousands will be clicking through, lol.
Carol Ann Wiley
· 1 year ago
Goodnight Rick,
Hope that you can get some sleep now after stirring things up again. I know I woke up, couldn't get back to sleep and so chose to sign on the pute and check out all the tweeting I could hear inside. And there you were. And here I am. One hour later, more wide awake than I was when I couldn't get back to sleep.
I agree with what you say about the dark side of the street that has become associated with the HUGE product launches. I have been exposed to enough of them now that I recognize them for what they are. A method, obviously successful, whereby those IMers with the biggest "black book" can go to their clients and hope to "tempt" them again.
I know that because I have been tempted before and have the left-over babies aging on bookshelves to show for it. I know that I am the reason for most of that for not being a "man" and getting things up and going. But no need to get into the blame mode.
I feel fortunate that over the last two years, I have had the opportunity to work with Dr. Mike Woo-Ming and Howie Schwartz and now with Jack Humphrey and can recognize a quality package when I see it. But I cannot say that, as a person still seeking the success that can be made in the IM world, I do not fall under the tempting promises of the newest, brightest shiny thing to come along; especially if there are little gifts on the side.
I sincerely hope that when I am that success I hope to be I will remember what it felt like to be the IM virgin looking for that right someone who could satisfy my hunger and need for a new life.
So, Good Night Rick. Thanks for being a catalyst again for bringing out both sides of the street.
Sharon Bray-McPherson
· 1 year ago
I've gotta agree Rick, the internet marketing industry is turning into one huge red light district - and George Washington is their pimp.
Sharon Bray-McPherson
Velvet Jones
· 1 year ago
Hello from an X-Pimp from the otha side of the tracks.
I just wanted to say that "I" have the best bonus available which comes in my beautifully packaged hard (non-green) PLASTIC case with pretty colors titled...
"How To Be a Hoe"
If you wanna make your Pimp Daddy happy, get my bonus and he won't hafta pimp slap you in the absence of the po-po.
This has been a public service announcement.
Faithfully yours, Velvet Jones
Martin "Whore" Wales
· 1 year ago
Marketers: Are We "Whores and Pimps?"
(First, Rick is a personal friend who I care for and respect. LOVE this debate. Let's learn while being open minded to all sides. Isn't that what America invades other countries for? To enforce Free Speech...hee hee. Dare I step into this Internet Marketing crossfire? Let's get to it then, shall we?)
Rick, you called out Internet Marketing 'gurus' as "whores" for recommending a new product from John Reese, a well-known and very successful (rich) online entrepreneur.
You defined the word 'whore' using Dictionary.com and applied it to those offering bonuses for buying TS2 from them. And, then asked these 2 questions:
1. "Does the person sending this to me actually give a darn how I come up with the money for this "must have" product - and whether it truly has a positive impact on my success - or if it is just another big box of stuff I will not be able to digest - putting me further behind in my goals?"
2. "Does this course contain real "secrets" or, is it possible, I can learn everything I need to learn, at a pace I can actually absorb and implement it - another way, for less money or free?"
Let's look at the context of ANY sale. Don't adults have their own minds, along with emotional and intellectual reasons for seeking out and buying products or services? Aside from food and shelter, what's truly necessary in our lives?
It makes me wonder, does the car dealer really care about me and my family's safety, comfort and fuel economy or is it just another hunk of steel and alloy on 4 rubber tires, and (if I could afford it) with a "L" logo on it?
Does anyone really need an iPhone? Can they afford it, plus the monthly highway robbery for web access they can get for FREE at the Public Library? The credit card companies did the credit application for my customers, so is their 'affordability' factor my social responsibility?
Don't get me wrong, I despise cons and scams ripping off anyone, old or weak. Fraud and lies are wrong and illegal. And yes, respect your list. Respect your readers. If you slam and slam, they unsubscribe. Isn't this self-policing?
Regarding the second question, I haven't seen the government or the FTC busting down publishers' doors and arresting everyone from the authors to the printers for putting out another diet book of "secrets" for losing those extra pounds.
As far as absorbing the information at my own rate, my DVD player did come with these amazing Bonus buttons, besides Play, to help me - Pause and Stop. :-)
For decades, people have been offered the "No workout and no diet" solutions to weight loss, when there are plenty of free resources claiming to get the same result. Common sense is free too (but using it remains voluntary) as we know that "eating less and exercising more" is pretty much the key for most of us.
For the record, I did recommended to my own community that they "check out" John's Traffic Secrets 2.0, as I know him to be honorable, experienced and knowledgable. I did not offer any bonuses.
For complete disclosure, I did not fully review the entire product, hence my 'take a look' approach. I have seen the digital transcripts of the DVDs and did review the entire first edition of "Traffic Secrets" however.
Really, I expect that most will NOT buy Traffic Secrets 2.0 but they can LEARN from its marketing, beyond the "Launch" hype and "bonus competition." I recommend people check out the MARKETING TECHNIQUES, i.e. using online video, and the the PROCESS. If you like TS 2.0, fine, buy it too, but either way, you can certainly model a guy who's made a few GAzillion bucks online.
In summary, Rick you also blogged and proposed:
a) One compromises one's principles for being an affiliate of a "launch" b) One is in it for the money (uh....Yes, this is a business arena) and "take a big fat 50% of your money for themselves" c) Adding bonuses is "shaking their bonuses at you, (the stuff they swore would never be for sale again at their last launch), and cooing seductively."
Let's look at these too, one at a time.
For (a), if you know the person or business is offering a valuable, pratical product, how is one compromising on principals? Certainly, as long as you've done your due diligence, you should feel comfortable recommending something helpful, EVEN if it costs money and EVEN if you make a commission/profit.
When should one take part in the excitement and momentum of an event like a launch? How many Republican or Democrat t-shirts can I sell AFTER the election is over?
For (b), again..."Duh!" Unless you're a monk... Wait, doesn't the Dalai Lama, participate in thriving, profitable publishing deals and business to raise funds for Tibet and world peace? Damn him too - Big Whore Monk!
Retailers mark up product easily, 100%. Jewelry is often sold at 400% mark up. It's a FREE Market. You don't have to buy your furniture, car, house, books, electronics, massage, car cleaning anywhere you don't want to.
Note: The original Traffic Secrets was $997 and this second, Traffic Secrets 2.0, drops to only $397, so affiliates will earn less. Yes, earn!
Affiliates built the list, presumably through some level of trust and respect, since prospects volunteered their names and email. It's the marketer's list to profit from and to protect and honor too.
Thers is also NO (obvious) backend to John's offer. There will be no other upsells, one-time offers, special bundles, forced continuity, optional continuity, immediate backend offers or anything. NOTHING else will be for sale.
For (c), bonuses have been part of promotions for eons. Marketing does encourage people to buy now. Building psychological pressure or just plain old 'opportunity' is not atypical.
And secondarily, regarding the 'scarcity' approach, how many times have you heard "For a Limited Time Only" from Walt Disney? They've been selling "Snow White" since when, around 1945?
What changes is the FORMAT. It's usually the technology - here from big screen, to VHS, to DVD and now Blue Ray. So, are we really buying the "content" or the "experience" each time?
It could also be the PERSON presenting the information, or providing the service. Why do I go to my "stylist" Lucky to get my hair done for $33 when I 'could' possibly get a similar result from Luigi the "barber" for $12 per lid shop? Packaging and Positioning (that I'm willing to even pay a premium for).
Finally, we sell CONVENIENCE of information gathered in one place in an organized, well presented format. For decades, some sell Government Grants info, which is FREE and available, IF you want to take the time and frustration to find it yourself vs. paying $69 to get right to it. I wouldwillingly pay the extra $40 to ride the same rides as others at roller coaster parks, but skip to the front of the line - anyday! (Busted.. I'm a Type A personality.)
For marketers, 'scarcity' is psychological application of supply and demand. Don't lie about it. Sure. Don't lie about anything (And, help the feeble, old lady with her groceries too while you're at it. Don't sell nuclear arms - unless you really, really trust the buyer either.)
What moral line starts and ends with us as marketers? Surely there should be honest, decency and respect. Let's put out the offer, affiliate link or recommendation and let the CUSTOMER decide from there.
If we misuse, abuse or otherwise mislead, our clients and customers, they can leave us, share negative comments and easily unsubscribe.
Nice debate and socially generated content all- around, Rick. :-)
(First, Rick is a personal friend who I care for and respect. LOVE this debate. Let's learn while being open minded to all sides. Isn't that what America invades other countries for? To enforce Free Speech...hee hee. Dare I step into this Internet Marketing crossfire? Let's get to it then, shall we?)
Rick, you called out Internet Marketing 'gurus' as "whores" for recommending a new product from John Reese, a well-known and very successful (rich) online entrepreneur.
You defined the word 'whore' using Dictionary.com and applied it to those offering bonuses for buying TS2 from them. And, then asked these 2 questions:
1. "Does the person sending this to me actually give a darn how I come up with the money for this "must have" product - and whether it truly has a positive impact on my success - or if it is just another big box of stuff I will not be able to digest - putting me further behind in my goals?"
2. "Does this course contain real "secrets" or, is it possible, I can learn everything I need to learn, at a pace I can actually absorb and implement it - another way, for less money or free?"
Let's look at the context of ANY sale. Don't adults have their own minds, along with emotional and intellectual reasons for seeking out and buying products or services? Aside from food and shelter, what's truly necessary in our lives?
It makes me wonder, does the car dealer really care about me and my family's safety, comfort and fuel economy or is it just another hunk of steel and alloy on 4 rubber tires, and (if I could afford it) with a "L" logo on it?
Does anyone really need an iPhone? Can they afford it, plus the monthly highway robbery for web access they can get for FREE at the Public Library? The credit card companies did the credit application for my customers, so is their 'affordability' factor my social responsibility?
Don't get me wrong, I despise cons and scams ripping off anyone, old or weak. Fraud and lies are wrong and illegal. And yes, respect your list. Respect your readers. If you slam and slam, they unsubscribe. Isn't this self-policing?
Regarding the second question, I haven't seen the government or the FTC busting down publishers' doors and arresting everyone from the authors to the printers for putting out another diet book of "secrets" for losing those extra pounds.
As far as absorbing the information at my own rate, my DVD player did come with these amazing Bonus buttons, besides Play, to help me - Pause and Stop. :-)
For decades, people have been offered the "No workout and no diet" solutions to weight loss, when there are plenty of free resources claiming to get the same result. Common sense is free too (but using it remains voluntary) as we know that "eating less and exercising more" is pretty much the key for most of us.
For the record, I did recommended to my own community that they "check out" John's Traffic Secrets 2.0, as I know him to be honorable, experienced and knowledgable. I did not offer any bonuses.
For complete disclosure, I did not fully review the entire product, hence my 'take a look' approach. I have seen the digital transcripts of the DVDs and did review the entire first edition of "Traffic Secrets" however.
Really, I expect that most will NOT buy Traffic Secrets 2.0 but they can LEARN from its marketing, beyond the "Launch" hype and "bonus competition." I recommend people check out the MARKETING TECHNIQUES, i.e. using online video, and the the PROCESS. If you like TS 2.0, fine, buy it too, but either way, you can certainly model a guy who's made a few GAzillion bucks online.
In summary, Rick you also blogged and proposed:
a) One compromises one's principles for being an affiliate of a "launch" b) One is in it for the money (uh....Yes, this is a business arena) and "take a big fat 50% of your money for themselves" c) Adding bonuses is "shaking their bonuses at you, (the stuff they swore would never be for sale again at their last launch), and cooing seductively."
Let's look at these too, one at a time.
For (a), if you know the person or business is offering a valuable, pratical product, how is one compromising on principals? Certainly, as long as you've done your due diligence, you should feel comfortable recommending something helpful, EVEN if it costs money and EVEN if you make a commission/profit.
When should one take part in the excitement and momentum of an event like a launch? How many Republican or Democrat t-shirts can I sell AFTER the election is over?
For (b), again..."Duh!" Unless you're a monk... Wait, doesn't the Dalai Lama, participate in thriving, profitable publishing deals and business to raise funds for Tibet and world peace? Damn him too - Big Whore Monk!
Retailers mark up product easily, 100%. Jewelry is often sold at 400% mark up. It's a FREE Market. You don't have to buy your furniture, car, house, books, electronics, massage, car cleaning anywhere you don't want to.
Note: The original Traffic Secrets was $997 and this second, Traffic Secrets 2.0, drops to only $397, so affiliates will earn less. Yes, earn!
Affiliates built the list, presumably through some level of trust and respect, since prospects volunteered their names and email. It's the marketer's list to profit from and to protect and honor too.
Thers is also NO (obvious) backend to John's offer. There will be no other upsells, one-time offers, special bundles, forced continuity, optional continuity, immediate backend offers or anything. NOTHING else will be for sale.
For (c), bonuses have been part of promotions for eons. Marketing does encourage people to buy now. Building psychological pressure or just plain old 'opportunity' is not atypical.
And secondarily, regarding the 'scarcity' approach, how many times have you heard "For a Limited Time Only" from Walt Disney? They've been selling "Snow White" since when, around 1945?
What changes is the FORMAT. It's usually the technology - here from big screen, to VHS, to DVD and now Blue Ray. So, are we really buying the "content" or the "experience" each time?
It could also be the PERSON presenting the information, or providing the service. Why do I go to my "stylist" Lucky to get my hair done for $33 when I 'could' possibly get a similar result from Luigi the "barber" for $12 per lid shop? Packaging and Positioning (that I'm willing to even pay a premium for).
Finally, we sell CONVENIENCE of information gathered in one place in an organized, well presented format. For decades, some sell Government Grants info, which is FREE and available, IF you want to take the time and frustration to find it yourself vs. paying $69 to get right to it. I wouldwillingly pay the extra $40 to ride the same rides as others at roller coaster parks, but skip to the front of the line - anyday! (Busted.. I'm a Type A personality.)
For marketers, 'scarcity' is psychological application of supply and demand. Don't lie about it. Sure. Don't lie about anything (And, help the feeble, old lady with her groceries too while you're at it. Don't sell nuclear arms - unless you really, really trust the buyer either.)
What moral line starts and ends with us as marketers? Surely there should be honest, decency and respect. Let's put out the offer, affiliate link or recommendation and let the CUSTOMER decide from there.
If we misuse, abuse or otherwise mislead, our clients and customers, they can leave us, share negative comments and easily unsubscribe.
Nice debate and socially generated content all- around, Rick. :-)
Great conversational point as always. I really love the fact that you've got the likes of Jack, Colin, Frank, Jason, Dr. Mani and others jumping in here with more comments. Cudos to you Rick.
On another note I think a new reverse auction strategy may be in order for future such launches. Taking your affiliate whore links observation to a new level may dictate that all those who are receiving 12 (or more) emails offering bonuses for the newest hot launch decide what product they "didn't" purchase from a guru in the past couple of months and then send them an e-mail telling the guru (whore) exactly what product or products they want for purchasing through his or her affiliate link.
I mean if it's a negotiation, why not make it a negotiation that benefits you in the way that you want to be benifited? After all if you are paying a whore, isn't it O.K. to ask for what makes you feel good rather than just taking what they give???
"Hey (Insert whore here) , (Insert another whore here)is offering ***** and you're only offering ****..
What else ya got?" Time to pony up whores. You started it.
Isabella "Niche Lady" Murphy
· 1 year ago
Woo, you know you're making waves in the community when people EXPECT you to come down to a comment thread. You know I'm cool with you and all, Rick, but I'd like to take a different tack here.
I passed on promoting (and even if you're not an affiliate, you do promote things in a certain way!) - Traffic Secrets, Day Job Killer, Affiliate Evolution, Google Nemesis, Affiliate Project X ... I can name off one real IM product I've promoted. As my online name suggests, I am a niche marketer, not an internet marketer - my focus isn't on really selling people on Yet Another Technique.
My focus is on teaching people how to behave themselves appropriately in niche markets, and quite frankly - you can have all the traffic in the world, but if you can't speak to your "tribe" (as @CoachDeb likes to call it) without pissing them off, well...it does you no good.
Paging Dr. Obvious? After looking over the backlash, posts, twitter fire, and other associated craziness, I don't think this is an obvious point.
Bottom line, and the real takeaway - you MUST get better at finding your own niche as a marketer.
Write down what you are focused on TODAY, 6 months, 12 months, 3 years, 5 years, etc.
Write down what you HATE doing. If you cringe at the idea of PPC, STOP BUYING PPC HOWTOS. If you hate product creation and like being an affiliate, STOP BUYING PRODUCT CREATION HOWTOS.
Buy what you're truly focused on, and not what anyone is promoting.
That's all I got - I didn't feel like John Reese stomping today. Or affiliate marketer stomping. I'm just laying down the good word.
Isabella "Niche Lady" Murphy
· 1 year ago
Woo, you know you're making waves in the community when people EXPECT you to come down to a comment thread. You know I'm cool with you and all, Rick, but I'd like to take a different tack here.
I passed on promoting (and even if you're not an affiliate, you do promote things in a certain way!) - Traffic Secrets, Day Job Killer, Affiliate Evolution, Google Nemesis, Affiliate Project X ... I can name off one real IM product I've promoted. As my online name suggests, I am a niche marketer, not an internet marketer - my focus isn't on really selling people on Yet Another Technique.
My focus is on teaching people how to behave themselves appropriately in niche markets, and quite frankly - you can have all the traffic in the world, but if you can't speak to your "tribe" (as @CoachDeb likes to call it) without pissing them off, well...it does you no good.
Paging Dr. Obvious? After looking over the backlash, posts, twitter fire, and other associated craziness, I don't think this is an obvious point.
Bottom line, and the real takeaway - you MUST get better at finding your own niche as a marketer.
Write down what you are focused on TODAY, 6 months, 12 months, 3 years, 5 years, etc.
Write down what you HATE doing. If you cringe at the idea of PPC, STOP BUYING PPC HOWTOS. If you hate product creation and like being an affiliate, STOP BUYING PRODUCT CREATION HOWTOS.
Buy what you're truly focused on, and not what anyone is promoting.
That's all I got - I didn't feel like John Reese stomping today. Or affiliate marketer stomping. I'm just laying down the good word.
Nancy Sutherland
· 1 year ago
Ok, so where is the link for the list? Did I miss something? Who are these 12 biggest internet marketing whores? Or do we need to vote on them? Would it be those who are most persuasive in getting people to buy without caring about the needs of they buyer? Most of this internet marketing is all new to me, so I am not qualified to pass judgement.
Nancy Sutherlands last blog post..
Ed Shaz/ NextInstinct
· 1 year ago
I have a great idea!
For those like Rick who want to nudge marketing karma away from embarrassing bonuses or hammering a list,
why not buy it from someone who has researched it (not seen a review copy),
Not sent even 1 email. And is offering NO bonus?
$397 is nothing for most of you, and even if you think you know a lot of it, Reese is Not trying to a cheap ebook with no new, valuable tips. What your site returns on investment is up to you.
Plus you want to be "in the know" this week, this month, this year if you're going to be part of the discussion, right?
I didn't get a chance to review TS2 so I'm emailing my list just that + giving them some advice on how to decide if the product is for them, as it's not for everyone.
I offered a bonus but it's personal and related to adding value to traffic and not some pile of PLR or recycled stuff.
Honesty in Whoring :)
MariSmith
· 1 year ago
Just having another rick-butts-appreciation-moment here. hehee You are hilarious, dude.
I dig John. He's one of the few IMers who actually responded personally to a message I sent him when he first joined Facebook. He seems to be of good stock. His presentations are quality & professional. And .... I'm not rushing out to buy anything from him... yet.
(Oh, and thanks to your advice, Rick, to only subscribe to a few quality IMers mailing lists, I didn't see any whore promos for TS2.0!! w00t! I came across the product through Twitter & FriendFeed - love that!!)
I do tend to agree with your perspective about "secrets" - it's a well-worn copywriting term, usually goes right along with "discover." ;) (Hey, I sometimes use 'em myself).
I watched John's video on his opt-in page (had to wait 'til I was back on higher speed internet... grrr!) I found it amusing he gave Facebook a cursory mention, zeroing in on his 5000 friends and encouraging peeps to get tons of friends 'cuz it was all about having the audience. Fair enough. Different strokes for different folks.
But, I've heard peeps call those annoying friend-gatherer types on FB "Facebook Ho's" - you know, the ones who add everyone and their dog?! Then they come and plaster a big siggy block on your wall. hehe
I don't mean John. But, I rather think the vast majority of those 5000 peeps already had a seat in John's arena. See, the cool thing about Facebook is it allows you to *expand* your community. And, for me, it's two way. It's not all about the audience and I'm on "stage." More, it's a cocktail party/business mixer where peeps are hanging out getting to know each other.
Anyway, I digress. Great stuff as always, Rick!
Cheers, Mari @marismith
Oliver Antosch
· 1 year ago
I agree that there aren't many secrets out there which are real secrets. The problem is some of this information is just rubbish which means you waste time with them. A lot of information just gets copied and isn't really tested. If John Reese really tested it as he said then it might be worth the money.
John Reese's integrity and the already established quality of his products and expertise are not on trial or even in dispute. John Reese just doesn't put his name on junk.
This blog post is about how affiliates and JV partners often promote these launches. And we've had a glut of them the first half of this year.
I am well-acquainted with someone who has 12 years' experience in IM who received an advanced copy of all the transcripts (as a JV partner). She says the quality is indisputable and she has found nuggets of gold for herself, especially in DVD 2.
And this information won't be outdated by Christmas, as was earlier stated, because the course comes with LIFETIME updates and access to a mastermind group that includes John Reese and his staff's interaction. That alone is worth 4 times the price of the course.
Perhaps the word "Secrets" is over-used these days, but unless you or I or anyone else out there is making the kind of money John is, and enjoying not only the successes he has under his belt, but living a life that allows him to travel in Europe during a launch for heaven's sake, then MAYBE HE DOES know some things the rest of us don't. The fact is, we don't know what we don't know. How could we? Let's keep things in perspective.
This is starting to sound like sour grapes to me, too.
When I have the cash, I will buy Traffic Secrets 2.0, because if I had it now, I'd get it in a heartbeat.
I cam across this post from being a member of a buzz group and I am so siked to have found it. I am soooooo fed up with these lame emails from these whores. And you picked the best word ever, "whores". (And it gets people to read to boot).
I too like John Reese, but I am not buying this new product.
I joined Stompernet, which is $800 a month and realized after a while that ALL the info they offer for that crazy price can indeed be found online for free. You have to be a little more persistent, and a good searcher, but it's all there. Needless to say, I left Stompernet, especially after I got major attitude from one of the two founders in the forum. A lot of these people act like they are God when it comes to this stuff, and it is really frustrating to deal with.
I also hate being marketed to in the same annoying way. Like if they say "limited time", "act fast for the bonuses", "we're only opening the doors for 2 hours", or here's one email subject line I got today: "I'll give you $50 to say "Traffic Secrets sucks", yet they're actually promoting the product!
And I particularly feel for the newbies who get suckered.
For the love of God, please make it stop.
Andrew Lock
· 1 year ago
Great post Rick. John Reese is a good guy but I couldnt help but see the irony of this launch. There are millions of biz owners that need a product like this, right? No one would dispute that. This is a product about how to get NEW customers, NEW buyers to our websites. Yet how ironic that this product is being PRIMARILY promoted by an established network of 'product pushers'! Not that that in itself is wrong, but surely that approach is sending out a message that goes contrary to what the product is about. There are millions of potential customers - business owners that could have been reached apparently using the traffic 'secrets' - but instead, the tustee 'network' was employed. What message does that send to potential buyers of the course?! The message seems to be "YOU need to use these 'secrets' to promote your business but all I need is my network." I like John, but I would have had more respect for him if he'd quietly used the traffic secrets to promote the course to REAL business owners, then offer it on an ongoing basis to 'our world' without all the hoopla and hype that is created by promoters. I hate what launches have become - it's not the best way to serve customers in my opinion.
I don't tar everyone with the same brush because some promoters genuinely care about their customers, but for most it seems the dollar signs come first and they'll push every launch that comes their way. Why can't they understand that their customers WILL rebel at some point? In our world it's the same core group of customers who are getting hammered from every angle at least once a month - how long will they tolerate it? It seems so odd when there are millions of NEW customers out there! That's who I've been attracting using methods like my H3 system for eBay.
There is a world outside IM and I think we all need reminding of that sometimes.
Am I really the only person in Internet Marketing that has never hired one of these whores? I think I have enough common decency to be polite, witty, and endearing and win the day for free. I have gleaned an enormous amount of information that is very valuable from forums and the free stuff that Jeff Walker has encouraged everyone to give away (I suppose I should thank Jeff for that). I also learn sooo much from Ed and Dan's thirty day challenge each year - thanks to the forums and the unpaid contributors again. Don't misread that; thanks to Ed and Dan first - I have learned much there and nearly bought into the edge. Any chance someone could put the TS2.0 up on bittorrent? If its so good that I suddenly make money then I will buy it(with the right bonuses of course).
Jonathan
· 1 year ago
Andrew Lock ... what are you doing?
You just let the cat out of the bag.
Now everyone knows the REAL traffic secret. :-)
Jonathan
Peter Harris
· 1 year ago
The videos were impressive and the package was well presented. I thought I was about to meet a genuine high class hooker and I was ready to lay down the cash, but then the "affiliate" nonsense from all my "friends" started to arrive and I realised she was just a girl from the street all tarted up to look like the real deal!
Seriously, I was considering buying John's offer just based on his excellent reputation. However, the affiliate marketing/pimping strategy just cheapened the whole thing. I would have felt like a sucker if I had gone for it.
I'm sure John, Frank and the others involved are reading this, so please don't take offence but listen to what's being said and take action to change your strategies. If you really know the secret of a better way to do this, why not lead by example?
JT Chandler
· 1 year ago
Not making excuses... but it was DARK... and the music was really LOUD. I think I had a bit too much to drink too and they were like, ALL OVER ME!... man o man crazy day but I felt special for a change, different then normal somehow?
However, now I feel dirty. THANKS RICK!
I don't know and can't remember who's cookie I tasted, all of them I think :-(
Guess I better run my virus scan and go take a shower.
Richard
· 1 year ago
This is fun! A quick word of advice for the Big Names...
Stop talking and take a look at yourselves! You guys are so busy defending what you are doing that you are missing the point here. Listen to your market! How many times have you told us that? YOUR MARKET IS US,... all the "Not So Big Names."
We are telling you loud and clear that we don't like what you are doing! We are not whining, being victims, or complaining - we are giving you invaluable marketing feedback. Whoever listens, and responds by finding a better, more palatable way to market to us, will be a big winner.
This "the whippings will continue until morale improves" approach is not helping anything. We will still be pissed off and you will still be indignant.
Rick
· 1 year ago
You guys are the coolest readers anywhere!
The whippings will continue until morale improves... LOL
Rick
Stephanie Bell the Spirit Coac
· 1 year ago
The discussion has been fabulous and fascinating and since I'm one of the masses being marketed to here's what I've learned (but not soon enough!) . . .
Bottom line - I have a brain and I use it! I may be new to internet marketing but I'm not new to the world and a hustle is a hustle whether it comes to my door trying to sell me a vaccuum cleaner or appears in my Inbox.
Yes -- I signed up for the FREE stuff -- so I get it that I'll get a pile of junk afterwards if I don't hit UNSUBSCRIBE! I have all the power I need in 1 finger! : ) Not brain surgery here! I've made good choices so far and some bonuses HAVE hooked me in -- but not if I wasn't half-way to the BUY NOW button already!
That being said -- I have to agree with Richard's comment that I would be THRILLED to see WAY SHORTER sales pages and FAR FEWER emails but as usual -- if the masses keep going for the same old same old -- then I guess I will just keep unsubscribing!
One last THANK YOU -- THANK YOU for all the free stuff -- THANK YOU for every person out there that has put VALUABLE USEFUL content out there for free because some of us folks are willing to do the work to find it ***AND** APPLY IT! : )
Blessings all!
Kathleen J.
· 1 year ago
Hey Rick,
Why don't you just come out and say you're so pricked that others beat you to getting those $200.00 commission checks?
We already know IM is a guru inner-circle game. When John makes $200 payable to each affiliate sale, and a flood of them whore-pimps start falling over themselves for a piece of the pie, should we be surprised that our inboxes are getting flooded?
John is just cornering the market with his latest release. Assuming what he is doing, is to one-up Stompernet, with this grandfather thing; and with his upcoming income website...
Those who jump in to sell TS2.0 will likely stand to gain from future upsells and backends, ain't that lucrative considering his quality programs are always high priced.
Again, no surprises.
Perhaps you'll care enough to share what you can learn from his TS2.0 forum with us in the future... this will make future visits to your website all the more worthwhile.
Thanks Andrew Lock! Your comments should make everyone here realize it's all the JV Partners who have lists that will win the IM game.
For one, they have the reach to make all business owners' ears stand up. These Partners are the frontline people who will cascade down all the important messages to the rest of the pack, and to the ultimate users.
This Traffic Secret is meant for people without lists, without influence, the 2nd or 3rd Tier Players who scrounged for itty bitty traffic.
Go for the list. This technique is just too powerful to ignore. Have we not seen enough? It works and it pulls in the moolah.
But if we sell lame crap overpriced products..., the whole wide world will swarm back and bite off our skin. And it'll be well-deserved.
Rick
· 1 year ago
Kathleen J.
Pricked? Is that a verb or adjective? I've never heard of it - but I promise you I am not jeaous about the success or money anyone made on John's launch.
You sure don't know me.
I clicked on the URL you put in for your name - and it redirects to an offer for 200 Cody Moya products with Resale Rights offer.
Good luck with that.
Rick
William
· 1 year ago
Hey Rick,
Good job with this, man! I'll be waiting on your new release entitled...
"Pricking Pimped Pimps - Hoes Will Follow"
BEAUTIFUL personification of what happens when you spill the Ripple. :)
Remember "Scientific Marketing"? That was written back in... what?... 1943? Yeah; Reese, you have to give the man his propers because he's the Mark Joyner (2001) and Allen Says (2000) of 2008.. then there's Andy over there, too.
Yet, what's all the hooplah about really? I mean, I don't see Big "G" or Mr. Ballmer making any bids on INcome.com. Every pond has its big a** catfish, in it. Question is, will the catfish continue to swim in the pond or try and swim UPstream and stop sucking up all the oxygen?
Seems that's what everybody is preaching about; on either side of the fence. "I can't breathe!" But, then again... when the Japanese rebuilt cars, TV's and other electronics with prettIER packages.. most got 'pricked' at them, too. Due to nothing else other than the fact that they had the 'resources' to REpackage what had already been done.
Yeah, we can find all that is deftly scribed in TS2 online, for fr.ee; but the reality is, very few would go looking for it with the fever of the 1800's gold miner.
Well, its all interesting to me because the big shift is right around the corner, anyway. I'm trying my best to get ready for that and have open arms for anyone who crosses the river.
"The List" will ALWAYS be the 'end' to the means; frustration sets in when the environment changes and the 'means' TO that end don't work anymore in the traditional sense. This ain't the early '00's; its been 8yrs already and there's been way too much innovation by the REAL players for the Squeezers to really work like they did, before. Thus, the frustration. Remedies are coming, though.. can't stop innovation.
Even Forbes just said, "Email is so 'last decade'."... hmmm...
Peace, Love & Prosperity (everybody)... and Rick, keep makin' 'em think, my Brother. :)
William
Chuck Bartok
· 1 year ago
I do things Backwards I guess. Read and commented on the latest posts first.
I love your consistency, Rick Butts.
The comments of some of the Esteemed Audience definitely follow a politically correct pattern.
Your observations are so on the target of what is wrong in this La La Land of Instant Gratification Seekers.
Our members succeed because they seek knowledge, Master-mind creative ideas, and make quick decisions to apply Massive Action.
Most have Invested little in the seeking knowledge part, because we always point to where the information is available for little or no cost. Libraries are still open, amazing place.
Thank you again and I love the wonderful comments you receive.
P.S. How does one get CommentLuv to work? I have it in my WP widgetsection activated
Dr. Dana Myatt
· 1 year ago
Rick's got it right ... again.
If I had one nickel back from each of the "must have" stuff I've purchased, I could probably retire. And I can count on one hand the information and programs that I am actually glad I bought and continue to use.
So here's my updated purchasing protocol and it seems to be working well for me so far.
I don't buy a program or information until I need it (that way it gets used instead of just getting filed for "some day," clogging up my computer. AND, I try to see if what I need is available for free (much of it is, and some of the free stuff is better than the paid stuff).
Dr. Dana Myatt
· 1 year ago
... and I hit the submit button before I meant to...
AND I try to read some real reviews (not the fake reviews used by whores to sell product) to see if people really are happy with it.
Oh, and one more thing. I've returned a product or two that was truly over-hyped cr@pola. It's interesting to see who honors their guarantee and how quickly. A couple of the Big Boys took FOREVER to refund. I just scratch these folks off my list for future buying no matter how great their "latest new thing" is supposed to be.
Trying to protect my online honor, Dana
Cassie
· 1 year ago
That's just it. This isn't a "game". To me, this "IM game" means putting food on the table for my two children. It means buying my son diapers and medication when he's sick. It means paying the rent so my kids have a safe place to sleep at night.
Until recently, I rarely had more than -$2 in my bank account. I would starve myself just so my kids could have what little we had left to eat. I had personal crap going on in my life that I allowed to get in the way of me working.
So when some shmuck comes along and tries to trick me into buying a product that may or may not work, I don't appreciate it. I don't want some copy and paste email that everyone else is sending out. I don't want some crappy bonus they put together in two minutes using five year old tactics that don't apply to today's standards.
I want an HONEST review, an understanding of who this product is right for, and who it isn't. Instead of saying "You HAVE to have THIS product or you're going to kill yourself", I want to see "This is the kind of product for someone who is just starting out in the internet marketing industry. If you already have experience marketing online, then you may want to skip this one."
I'm not talking about Traffic Secrets or any other product in particular, I'm talking about the methods that these affiliates use to lure people in.
Think about the person you're trying to sell to. Realize that they ARE a person. And don't insult me with your crappy emails while trying to take my hard earned money. I'm smart enough to make the decision to buy on my own, it's your job to give me the information I need to decide if it's right for me or not.
If you want to know how to do it properly, check out Alice Seba and Lynn Terry. Ok, now I'm done ranting. Sorry.
Yes, these are the "list pimps" we all know and hate. Go for the lists???? And they are only there for the $. The newbies and IM are catching on, big time, and it is going to come back and bite.
Rick
· 1 year ago
Hey William - Chuck - Dana - Lynnie and Cassie,
Thanks for taking the time to share such personal thoughts. And William - personification - what a tasty word to read first thing in the morning!
Friends warned me that using the "W" word and other edgy ideas would alienate people - I'm finding that there's a nice world full of people who don't mind using real language.
Thanks Rick
Rob Lewis
· 1 year ago
Rick,
Love your blog posts! Starting to think the ones who get so offended have a guilty conscience? (or at least a streetwalker outfit in the closet?) Although I am new to this world, I am getting the feeling that you are the guy that EVERYONE is friends with but NO ONE talks about at parties!! Ahhhh the irony of being political, right? LOL Just kidding, love the posts, had to subscribe, now addicted.........
Lorraine Grula
· 1 year ago
It's only a paper moon hanging over a muslin tree....
Authenticity ladies and gentlemen, is what the above expressed frustration is all about. The entire world is so fake. I know, I worked in TV for eons. I was the one doing the faking! Fooled ya all!
People just want the plain truth so they can make a decision but instead they get sky tricks and manipulation. Horse-hooey is you will.
Internet marketers are some of the best marketers around.
Best marketing = the most manipulative marketing.
Nobody wants to be manipulated but we are bombarded anyway.
Duck and cover folks!
Life sucks and then you die which, although sounds quite crass and pessimistic, actually means...QUIT COMPLAINING AND GET BACK TO WORK. Reality bites. Get over it.
Just being my practical self.
I no longer waste my time reading horse-hooey!
Instead, I waste my time writing horse-hooey on Rick Butts blog.
First, RE: Traffic Secrets 2 ---------------------------- TS2 is more than just SocialMedia - there's a lot of really good, up to date ideas in there; Reese is only charging $400; not $2k as the Guru-trend was flying - I think it's a *very* fair price; And here's the kicker -- you get LIFETIME UPDATES. And he didn't have a JV Contest either (as another reader commented).
So, Rick Butts (whom I think Kicks Butt and you know I love you) - John Reese may just be smarter than you thought. ;-)
And seriously, I think it's irresponsible of you to not do just a little due diligence before putting that out there (you *do* have newbies reading your posts -- see "Ben" above).
Secondly, Whores vs Pimps ------------------------- And JP - I dunno - who says "Whores" are victims. I think that's baloney. As a potential list-whore myself -- I know what I'm doing and why. And I say 'potential' mostly b/c I don't think I've compromised my principles.
Lemme tell you something though, Rick. (and just b/c I use your name here doesn't mean I'm angry -- I know it reads that way, but I'm actually not).
Here's the deal... Doing something "extraordinary" is *REQUIRED* now during a launch. Firstly, some of these products are only available for a day or two (granted, made-up scarcity -- but it's still there) ...
If you don't do a bonus, you're dead in the water.
Case in point -- I promoted TS2 (yes, I read over the transcripts of the product first) -- I just sent 2 emails, and only made a handful of sales. I know for a *fact* that if I would've done a bonus, a teleseminar, a webinar, a live Q&A, a review ... just one or any combination of those things ... I would have gotten four or five times the results.
Why didn't I?
Not because I felt like any of that would be 'compromising my principles' ... More because I was lazy (or maybe busy) and a little tired of having to come up with bonuses all the time. So, actually, I was compromising my principles by *NOT* giving more.
Bonuses work especially well during launches because the market has learned to go look for 'em now. (HINT: If you're doing any affiliate marketing -- bonuses also work ANY TIME.)
Thirdly, I scratch my ass, not my balls --------------------------------------- Lorraine - I think many of the 'internet millionaires scratching their balls' do care. I've put Rick's feet to the fire on this before and even he agrees. But this really is a two way street. I whole heartedly believe that most of the stuff out there actually does WORK. But what happens is someone buys it, lets it sit on the shelf, buys the next thing, repeat.
I remember talking to a woman at a WIMME event in San Francisco... she said she was frustrated b/c she hasn't made $1 yet and she's spent over $6,000 on information products.
I said "did you take action on any of it"?
"YES!" was her response -- "I just said -- I bought $6000 worth of info products".
I've run into many people with this same mentality. So, it really is a two way street. I think the 'list whore road' is certainly getting traffic jammed. I'm not defending that here. Just want there to be some understanding that this goes both ways.
I had someone come to a retreat at my house (I hope he doesn't see this, bless his soul) -- he was 10's of thousands in debt and somehow put the money together to get to my house...
He had no technical skills -- couldn't put up a website to save his life. And didn't have the money to do so. (We offered to put one up for him at no charge...) But one of the other speakers pointed out to me behind closed doors - - - "hey, he had money to get here, money to buy other info products, but no money to get a web site set up" -- no money to set up his business!)
Maybe nobody's teaching "priorities" or "action oriented success", I don't know. But I run into this mentality alot. So, I dunno - I'll stand by my 'internet millionaire' friends because I know many of them personally -- and many of them DO indeed care. And yes, they're in business to make money -- why not sell affiliate products from the other people they know?
Harris Fellman tries to turn in his high heels --------------------------------------------- Anyway, all that said I'm going to be attempting to turn over a new leaf. You heard it here first...
I mail too many offers to my list with too little content. (Although, something I hear in the back of my head, even as I write this is "you don't make money if you don't promote to them". And a brotha's gotta pay the bills.) It's not to 'get the little guy' -- it's really just b/c there's so much out there... friends come out with new things all the time ... what's a whore to do?
But I know that I'm built for Social Media -- I've known it for a long time. I have way too much fun doin' characters and crackin' jokes to *not* have a better presence. I've been trying for two years to put the energy towards it -- my blog sucks, I steer clear of Facebook & Myspace, and I thought Twitter was a waste of time (okay, I just started on twitter yesterday -- maybe it *IS* -- but I've heard too many good things from ppl I trust to keep ignoring it).
FYI - partially thanks comments in your Stomper post -- I started looking harder at twitter and finally jumped in. (You'll find me *not* to be a whore there I think - click my name above or here http://twitter.com/harrisfellman - if you wanna follow me ... should be fun, funny, and maybe even profitable for you sometimes.)
Anyway - thanks again for getting the conversation goin' Rick.
Hi Rick, Thanks for stopping by and reading my Blog Post, I think it presents a valuable lesson that many can learn from and shows how social media is changing the way launches are perceived and that old school tactics are leaving many people with a bad taste in the mouth
Rick
· 1 year ago
Harris Fellman!
I want everyone to know that Harris has been kind enough to help me personally via Skype and telephone and email - to get through a very difficult time as I was losing and eventually lost my father to cancer.
You know how hard it is to be creative and productive when you are emotionally a wreck?
Still, you try - and I know that Harris put up with a lot of my hand wringing about "what to do with my career and life" and gave me MANY great ideas and resources, some of which I am implementing only now.
What you said here Harris - and I say your name here instead of screaming it out in gay bars, (LOL), was dead on - right on - and true.
When we discussed the ethical implications of selling products that teach people how to make money online - vs - what they do with them later ie: if they ever actually implement, we agreed this is totally NOT the fault of the marketer.
I'm pretty sure that somewhere in here I have said on video and in print that nearly ALL Internet marketing products work, it is just up to us to implement.
It would be a mistake for me to lay full blame at the feet of marketers for creating lots of new stuff to buy - when in the end, IMHBAO - in my humble but accurate opinion - it is the responsibility of each of us to get our own sh*t together and implement.
We are only "victims" if we choose to let ourselves believe that.
But, as others have commented here - this market is wickedly deadly at making so many things appear to be easy, quick, and simple, (even if they include a caveat about requiring work.)
Thanks Harris for your thoughtful comments here.
I'm going to go follow you on Twitter. You are one of the most hilarious and creative guys I've ever met - if you'll follow me back?
Input on the subject of, "Well Ma'am, did you even read the frigging eBook?" as a response to the debate of WHOSE FAULT IS IT ANYWAY? between gurus and their lists debated herewith.
I have found the sum total of everything one needs to operate a profitable business on the Internet to be more than has ever been encompassed in one product. Or I should say, any one product that I am aware of. I am certainly not familiar with every product.
HOWEVER, that's not a critiscm, because I think the reality is that running a PROFITABLE BUSINESS on the Internet is more complicated than most people care to admit, especially when they are writing sales letters.
It's not that I haven't done anything. I'm a nerd. I LIKE to read. I read a little of everybody and got confused as heck. I tried a little of everything.
I've had a total of about 15 active websites up of various styles. (Some adsense sites, some mini sites, some authority sites) and for half a dozen reasons, they've all been financial flops. But I keep trying. I keep learning. You know that damn turtle ended up winning the race.
Maybe the trouble is I am just a moron who can't do anything right?
Yeah, sometimes I can be a real lame brain, but overall, no, I was always the one throwing the curve off in school.
Depending on what individual talents and experiences a person brings to their effort of Internet Moguldom, there's a lot to learn and information becomes obsolete rapidly.
So it is not that I truly feel like any particular Internet marketer pushes crap and doesn't give a pootie about us struggling wanna-bes out here, but I absolutely believe that often the reality is glossed over in favor of marketing hype.
I mean, what kind of conversion is this copy likely to get:
"Exhaust, Frustrate and Bankrupt Yourself Learning the Ninety Gagillion Things You Need To Know to Succeed Online .
Same reason they don't sell diet books called "How to Eat Yucky Vegetables and Exercise Your Fat Ass Off."
So we're all still fat.
ALSO, I do have to say that the ability to teach so that others fully comprehend is actually a fairly rare gift. That's my nice way of saying that I have seen some mighty poor junk passed off as awesome content worth at least $97. I definitely feel that some of our internet marketing guru friends let their egos get the best of them as they review the effectiveness of their own work.
I hear all the frustration and have had my share of it. But a few things are bothering me about this discussion, and I am glad to see that some thoughtful and insightful comments have been posted here that shine like polished golden nuggets among the dross.
1) If you're getting multiple offers from lots of affiliates for a big promotion, then you're on too many lists. You chose to subscribe and have had the option to unsubscribe since you signed up. That part is under your control, and no amount of complaining about how many emails you're getting about TS 2.0 will change anything until you take action.
2) What do hucksters, hypesters and schlock products have to do with John Reese and TS 2.0? If you're upset with his affiliates, TAKE ACTION and tell him. Better still, tell THEM.
But moaning and groaning HERE is less likely to change anything long-term. John's integrity and the quality of his products are above reproach. To lump him together with any Tom, Dick and Jane who are promoting every product down the pike with tantalizing bonuses, etc. is grossly unfair. I would buy TS 2.0 in a heartbeat, given the funds or credit, neither of which I have.
3) Who among the spleen-venters here is an affiliate marketer? Or who is or has been an aspiring affiliate marketer? If you're in either of these categories, you're a hypocrite calling affiliate marketers whores.
Affiliate marketing is the backbone of the internet. Getting a commission for making a sale is a time-honored business practice.
And if you're on that many internet marketers' lists, then you must be planning to make money online. Therefore, if you could, you'd choose to make boatloads of money. So let's be clear here. You're studying to be a marketer. Or maybe you already are. Then are you planning to give away all YOUR products for free? Do you NOT plan to make a profit?
If you DO anticipate earning a living wage, then stop criticizing people who are implementing strategies that WORK and "go, thou, and do likewise."
But here's the problem. Rick, with his pot-stirring controversial post has single-handedly set back affiliate marketing to the dark ages.
Good, legitimate, responsible marketers have lost thousands of dollars and stand to lose even more in the future because of this controversy and resulting perception that if you promote someone else's product you're a blood-sucking, money-grubbing, street-walking prostitute.
"For the last 2 years I've survived financially from affiliate marketing and reviewing products, while being infinitely frustrated with the state of Internet marketing as is well documented here.
So by not really being in "the game" (aggressively squeezing names and mailing for the big launches) I've really not prospered anywhere near what I could have - and that is my own fault."
You are, Rick, by your own definition, an affiliate whore, according to this confession above.
So instead of "being in the game," as you said, you chose to stir up this controversy, having all these other people who aren't in the game themselves apparently (because if they were, they'd be out there making money and not here) and are jealous and frustrated, so they tell you "You're the man." I'm not going to do that.
I think what you have done is smeared good people in your quest to be in the spotlight. I hope it's worth it to you to know that many people who could have benefited from John's product will never buy it because of you -- AND YOU HAVEN'T EVEN SEEN IT OR REVIEWED IT, yet you declared it would be outdated by Christmas. Considering John is offering lifetime updates, that means TS 3.0, TS 4.0, etc. will be FREE. So it will NEVER be outdated. Plus he and his staff will participate with customers -- assuming you haven't driven them all off -- in a mastermind group.
And I hope all this attention focusing on you, Rick, is worth it in that you have stolen income, which you yourself COVET, from others whose livelihood is promoting quality products as affiliates. I personally know good people who have lost thousands of dollars because of this controversy you stirred up.
You're like a little kid who sees someone else succeeding, and so you start bad-mouthing him/her, making claims, stirring the pot, and getting all the attention onto yourself. It's a childish, selfish tactic and I'm appalled that you have stooped to so low a level and yet dare to drag every affiliate marketer through the mud by calling them whores.
And BTW, it's not that you used the word "whore," but that you are name calling with it, labeling people as such, most of whom you don't even know.
If you put as much creativity into your business as you do into engendering controversy, you would have made that million dollars online several times over.
Fortunately, such attention as you have garnered here is fleeting.
There's only so much tweaking you can do to this thread until it dies a natural death. But the interesting thing is, the furor will die down and John Reese will still be selling his TS 2.0. There's no time limit. There's no "I'm selling only XX copies" limitation. He's got the track record and the longevity.
What's unfortunate is that you totally missed the point of the POST. (not to be confused with the comments)
And, like a small percentage of the readers, you turned it into some kind of negative review about John or his product, which it totally is not.
I could detail this - but it is kind of like explaining a joke to someone who failed to get it on the telling.
I'd heard you were a great sounding board and compass. I'd hoped that would be true and am really disappointed to see you choose to swoop in late and hack at this discussion with such cutting remarks.
I'll be the first to admit I've whored out my list from time to time in the past. How do you think I got the perspective to write this? It takes one to know one!
Finally, the people who took the discussion off in their own direction - just like you did - are making comments - not to be confused with my post.
It is an error reason to combine them - and then slam me as if I wrote them all.
Dr. Dana Myatt
· 1 year ago
Deb, I think you're missing the point...
Maybe I'm just interpreting Rick differently than you are, but it looks to me like you've missed the real point(s) he was trying to make, to wit:
1.) If you ARE an affiliate marketer and believe you have a valuable product, for cryin' out loud could you please write your own sales letter (with "reasons why" I should buy this and who it is really for), instead of spamming me with the cookie-cutter sales letter supplied by the seller?
And while you're at it, tell me if you've actually used this product or have only read the sales page, as I have. That's being honest. It's also being a good affiliate marketer instead of a spammer.
2.) If you are an affiliate marketer (and I understand you're trying to sell me stuff in your newsletters), you'll make a lot more money AND secure my trust if you aren't pitching absolutely every launch/JV product that comes down the pike (again, all with the same sales letter).
I'd like to hear "I used this product and feel that it isn't worth the $gazillion price tage for most people" OR "Truth is, I haven't used this service, but I'm going on the reputation of the seller." Or how about a flat-out "I don't think this ebook is worth the $297 pricetag. You'll find similar information for a lot less money at (fill in the blank)"
In other words, give me some REAL reviews, insights and information, not just a bunch of spammed sales letters. I'll trust you dearly, and spend money with you over and over. But steer me wrong on even one lousy product (especially one where I can't get my refund), and you've lost a customer.
I agree with you (and Rick has said this before). If you're getting too much of the same junk, that little "unsubscribe" feature works really well. I've peeled my IM newsletters down to a handful, and I'm getting better information in far less time.
Rick hasn't "single-handedly set back affiliate marketing to the dark ages." Geez, now he's going to have a HUGE head thinking he's got that much power! ;-)
He's simply called on folks to be good --- not whorish --- affiliate marketers. Why would anyone have a problem with that?
The Truth can really bite some times, can't it?
P.S. I didn't "get" that Rick was "dissing" John Reese and his new program. Did I miss something?
Rick
· 1 year ago
Deb,
I just re-read your comments and wanted to add.
1 - I don't think for a second that I kept one single copy of John's course from being purchased by someone who "really needed it."
2 - Poetic justice is sweet? (This caps the "story" you invented where I fade to cyber dust while John Reese prevails timelessly - rising above my yapping at his heels like a small angry little dog. I guess you ARE the Story Lady because this whole thing is a wild fabrication based on your conclusions that just aren't true.)
3 - I like John Reese and as far as I know - even though he didn't invite me to trip the light fantastic to Europe - we are friends.
4 - Even John had to put out a **WARNING** to "some people" who were promoting his course too aggressively.
5 - "Rick you are like a little kid bad mouthing" Huh? Have you ever read commentary? Do you not see how burned out the market is from these heavy handed "everybody all mail NOW!" launches?
6 - "But moaning and groaning HERE is less likely to change anything long-term" - uh, isn't that exactly what you are doing?
You are welcome to return here - to this desert wasteland blog - and apologize.
I'm all for discussion, just as long as the facts emerge.
Thanks all, Rick
Rick
· 1 year ago
Thanks Dana -
Very well said.
You have captured my intentions and message here.
It's hard to ignore how the marketplace (people who are on the receiving end of these emails) are feeling and reacting to this slam-launch-fest.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond.
Rick
Lynn Terry
· 1 year ago
Thank you Cassie :)
Regarding John's integrity, and his stance with his affiliates, I've published his latest email that went out to TS affiliates on Friday night. You'll find it here: http://www.clicknewz.com/1625/john-reese-affili...
I have some confessions to make. And I received your email, Rick - I'll post both (confessions & response) at my blog before the days end.
Great discussion here. I am a buyer, a product developer, and an affiliate marketer - giving me a broad perspective of this issue as a whole - and I am walking away from this thread (having read every single word) with much to think about.
Lane Lester
· 1 year ago
I found this post through Lynn Terry's blog and have found the whole conversation interesting. I think Cassie is the only one who reported the frustrations of failure after following some guru's sure-fire recipe for success. I'm one of the mostly-silent horde of people who've invested hundreds of dollars and yes, hundreds of hours working one formula or another to make only a pittance.
When the emphasis shifted to social marketing spam as the way to get traffic, I bailed out of the whole IM scene. But now that I've had time to fail at an offline business, I'm back again to see if there's anything I can do in good conscience, I'm going to follow some of the links in the original post and the comments to get a flavor of what's going on.
However, since I absolutely detest video as a way to learn something, at least I won't be tempted to buy (and perhaps won't benefit from) TS2.
Rosalind Gardner
· 1 year ago
Rick,
Love you.. Love John. Solid information and insight all around.
In this case, I believe Dr. Dana Myatt summed up our roles and responsibilities as affiliate marketers brilliantly. (Dr. Dana, you can write for me anytime!)
However, how people react to canned emails from those affiliates who can't be bothered to make the time or effort to inform their subscribers about the value (or lack thereof) of a product, yet tantalize with 3 million bucks worth of rehashed crap that no one will ever use, is entirely up to them.
If they want to spend their way into the poorhouse on the basis of ridiculous hopes and worthless bonuses (because they're not on your list or mine), that's their business and folly.
We can't control the actions of others... and it's doubtful that the world's oldest profession - or its manifestation within the affiliate marketing industry - will end anytime soon.
So, all any of us can do is our best - and hope that the bulk of subscribers on our lists are reasonable, responsible adults.
The secret is to be able to UNDERSTAND the secret.
If you don't know something, it is a secret to you.
If someone can TEACH you something, in a way that you can understand it, embrace it, and run with it - then it is worth the cost to learn said secret.
Example Topic: How to do searches on the Internet.
Google and Yahoo have "Help" areas that show you how to do online searches. No secrets there, right?
Um, then why do so many people stink at it?
Note: I have worked with doctors, lawyers and Indian chiefs, who had no clue on how to use the search engines. And I mean the MAJORITY of people, from all walks of life, I have personally worked with have no clue.
If you (who are reading this comment now) are really good using the search engines then you are potentially a nerd, or have been online long enough and made efforts to figure it out. You are part of a minority.
In one of my niches, I have taught people how to use the search engines to become online research experts. I taught them the "secrets" of this topic.
Yes, in spite of all the Helps from Google, etc., and other online resources, my down-to-earth teaching on the topic opened a whole new world to them. I literally helped change their online lives. I know this because they told me that I did with glowing testimonials and reviews.
They were thrilled. The secret to them, was understood.
With online marketing, like so many other topics, there is information overload and confusion. Who is right, who is wrong?
John Reese did two things for me in the past years:
- He opened a whole new world about Internet marketing to me.
- He taught me in a way that I could understand.
One of the big factors to me with John is that he has tested so many things and actually been in the trenches doing it - and succeeding.
I believe there is no greater calling that that of a teacher.
So, teach me, Rick. There are plenty of things out there that are still secrets to me.
Use your powers for good. Build and do not tear down.
;-) Robert
Earl Jones
· 1 year ago
Those who said there are no secrets are Clintonian liars.
They have all the secrets they want to hide.
Yet they propose a ridiculous notion like:
"There's No Secrets"
Yeah right, sell that to school kids!
Andrew Lock
· 1 year ago
The number of comments proves this is a hot topic that MANY people feel concerned about.
It's not about tearing down because options and solutions have already been presented by many of the commenters.
This thread is also not about John Reese, and it's certainly not an attack on him. His product undoubtedly has value to many, that's not in dispute.
John is merely the latest in a long line of marketers to use a promotional method that a lot of people (both customers and marketers) are concerned about.
The crux of the matter as I see it, is best presented as a question:
Should internet marketing related products be launched with hype, by affiliates and JV partners who use unscrupulous tactics, bombarding their lists, and competing against other promoters by adding 'bribes', OFTEN without having even seen the actual product they're promoting?
Of course, customers DO have a choice, they CAN unsubscribe from a list, BUT customers can also be manipulated. After all, we are in a world of expert marketers who can make plenty of people believe that their product is the magic pill that'll solve all their problems and make them lots of money.
It's been my observation that a LOT of customers are starting to rebel. They're starting to realize that they've spent lots of money without any results. They're starting to realize that there really are few genuine 'secrets'. They're starting to realize that they need to find a mentor who provides help and value CONSISTENTLY, not just right before a launch with the sole purpose of whipping people up into a frenzy of excitement, only for them to be abandoned later, until the next launch...
You manage to get said in a few words what is really clear and true about how both sides of the story are true.
While you CAN unsubscribe - we WANT great content and to be treated with respect.
That is why I wrote I am Joe's Emai List.
Thanks for your support Andrew,
Rick
Mark Ress
· 1 year ago
Hello Rick and all who are following this post especially Deb who seems to have taken Rick's post WAY too personal. I am with Dr. Dana Myatt on this one. John has done very very well for himself and to think that Rick can hurt his earnings or anyone else's for that matter is off base to me. WAY OFF BASE!
If you are a good marketer then you CAN sell period! That is the bottom line. You can't let one man's opinion of what you're doing or not doing stop you. There are always going to be haters and naysayers but to say that Rick hurt John's sales is a weak a-- cop out in my humble opinion. I mean some will, some won't, so what next!!
When someone says to me that I can't do this or can't do that it just makes me more determined to prove them wrong. John's first TS was good enough that it's credibility alone is closing sales for John. I know I REALLY liked it and like John. As a matter of fact I am one of these guys who was waiting for all the bonuses to come out before I decided to buy. Rick's post is certainly not going to stop me. No offense Rick. ;)
A very good friend of mines once said "You're not a real marketer if you can't stand on your own two feet. If all you can do is ask others to mail to their lists for you then that isn't marketing because anyone can do that." Now we all KNOW John Reese does not NEED people to mail for him. He CAN obviously stand on his OWN two feet but there are alot of folks out there who can't. So what they NEED to do is LEARN HOW TO MARKET BETTER. If Affiliate Marketers out there are going to allow what Rick says and think "victimize" them then they need to get out of the game. You have to be able to bring it or just don't get involved. I can't concern myself with what others say. I just hone my skills more and use what others say as fuel to succeed.
John Reese is considered a legend by alot of folks in this industry and his reputation and credibility alone probably sold the copies of TS 2.0 that DID sell. Yeah some Affiliate marketers threw in their bonuses to make more sales for John and themselves but it's not like John would've starved if they hadn't. I am sure John is doing quite well with this launch.
You have to build a relationship with your list. You have to have built an affinity with your list and that is what makes or breaks the deal. Not one man's opinion which Rick IS entitled to just like you are Deb but I think you misread Rick's post and intention in the post.
There are too many folks out there who DO pimp out their lists for a commission without really giving a damn about people's success. WHERE is the follow up? Where is their intent to make sure the customers that buy through their links understand the material THEY are endorsing. Those that just come out to make a quick buck are the folks you should be attacking Deb. I mean isn't this still America that we live in? Don't we have freedom of speech here? Last I checked we did.
I don't know ONE IM'er or Affiliate Marketer that AFTER he or she endorses a product as an affiliate and makes that nice affiliate commission takes it upon THEMSELVES to put on a free teleseminar or webinar making sure that folks consume the material and understand it. I've never known or heard that happen. There is no "after you buy through my link" support or follow up. They just leave buyers on their own. I am referring to the affiliates and not the owner of the product. John has offered to do alot for the buyers on this TS 2.0 but I am referring to affiliates in general. They just figure it is the author or owner of the original product's responsibility but it would be nice once in a while to see affiliates follow up and make sure their subscribers/buyers are getting all they can out of the product. I may be wrong and if I am I apologize but have never heard of such a thing. Affiliates move on after promoting a product. I mean they deliver their bonuses and then you are on your own.
I don't know you Deb and you don't know me but I know Rick well enough to say that I seriously do not think his intent was to kill John's sales. I think he was just pointing out some things that were maybe bothering him and a lot of folks will admit that they DO get tired of receiving tons of emails on the same product launch. I think it is healthy to opt out of IM'ers lists who are not contributing value to their subscribers. If the ONLY time you hear from a marketer is when there is a big launch then unsubscribe I say. I know alot of marketers who DON'T take the time to give a sh-- about their subscribers. All they care about is their commissions. They do not educate, help or freely give to their lists. They use the word sheeple in private conversations but would never say it to peoples faces. Who is stepping up for the buyers of the products? Where is their voice when they buy products BECAUSE an affiliate is pushing pushing pushing it down their throats and they never can implement it. It just collects dust on their hard drives. Who feels bad for them?
Are all affiliate marketers "bad" or "selfish" of course not! I am just saying to look around and see how many of them really do follow up to insure the success of their buyers?
Either way I believe we are all entitled to our opinions and if a person does not like the programming then they can just change the channel. It is as simple as that as I see it.
Thanks for reading.
p.s. For all I know maybe I misunderstood everyone who's posted comments on this post including you Deb but does that make me a bad guy? Nah just misunderstood like Rick I guess.
God bless you and yours
p.s.s It is not my intention to disrespect Deb, John, Rick or anyone else for that matter so I hope this comment does not get misread and start another fire. ;)
Earl Jones
· 1 year ago
It'll be great if we can get the affiliate marketers to refund us the postage, when we sent back the course materials, if the main product is good, but the bonuses are crap.
It'll be best if we can buy the main product again from another affiliate whose bonuses potentially live up to their claims.
That way we won't be locked into some worthless stupiac bonuses.
Peter Koning
· 1 year ago
Part of the problem is including affiliates and "jv partners" in a launch.
But now that I read my original blog post I realize that I've assumed that IM launches are different. Yes they're different ... they're different in the sense that they're getting out of hand.
I think I'll rewrite my post to say that even in the IM world you shouldn't launch with masses of affiliates, for the same reasons you wouldn't start an affiliate program when launching in any other niche.
Give good value, get happy customers referring you more, figure out how to optimize your conversion, then start buying traffic ... and maybe then think about starting an aff. program.
Nicole of JustAskNicole.com
· 1 year ago
LMAO @ "bottom bitch"... great analogy! And Frank Kern's comment about being a slut... HI-LAR-I-OUS! Personally, I think a lot of the activities surrounding a typical "launch" are just pure overkill. The true value (not price) of the product gets cheapened by the "free bonus" wars. If I really want a product, I buy it directly from creator. And then I usually end up unsubscribing from all of those mailing lists that say basically the same thing.
Lee Duncan
· 1 year ago
Rick,
You have written precisely what I thought. I unsubscribed from 3-4 lists as a direct result of big-launch whoring - Mike Filsaime was one of these lists.
I watched John Reese's videos about TS2 and it looks a good product, although not something I want right now. The hyperbole and bullsh^t that it was wrapped in by "the 12 whores" just took the biscuit & I decided to tune them out.
I think such a big part of social networking is trust, and they blew it.
Thank you again Rick for bringing a smile to face. This Internet Thing intrigues me. Especially from a Marketers viewpoint.
People are seeking information.
For a multitude of reasons.
And thanks to The Power of this medium, it is available for FREE in almost all situations. One must be diligent, as we were in the past, and seek the Information, spend Time & Energy instead of Massive Capital.
Now I understand that you can BUY your way into Success, there are example of that all over the net...
But thanks to people like yourself and others the "average Joe and Jane" can learn HOW TO BUILD successful businesses through this Medium.
The new name "Social Networking" is what we have been practicing for 50 years
I still favor Off-line Businesses, much more lucrative currently, and the ability to Rifle Focus the prospects is easier. Not a lot of wannabes.
My off-line consulting grows from Realistic Clients who know what they have to do to get on top and stay there.
I really appreciate your Candor and talent. Hope to meet up some day
All Comments
Actually, I was wondering myself that question yesterday after hearing so much about Traffic Secrets 2.0 and questioning if there was really any information left that hasn't already been shared in one form or another via various mediums (a lot of them free).
I love John Reese but I'm going to pass on this one for now. I'm sure he's got some killer information in there, but my head won't explode if I don't buy it, even though some people want you to believe so.
Cassies last blog post..Thwirl versus TweetDeck
There's also some excellent information all over the web but you get to keep your 4 $100 bills in your pocket.
At this point - the reality is - are we using what we already know from social marketing, linking, writing articles, before we invest in more knowledge on the subject?
Traffic generation just takes some ideas and time.
Thanks!
Rick
I should've named my published book "Secrets of Online Persuasion" something sexier like "Traffic Whore" eh? Shucks!
Hey - wait a minute... you're not calling ME a whore for having the 1st published book on social / new media marketing - are you?!
http://snipurl.com/sophardcover
hmmmm... rethinking friendship w/ @Rick_Butts
And NO BONUSES! Screw bonuses!
J-Mo
big jason top affiliate challenge whores last blog post..New WordPress Theme for Top Affiliate Challenge
Re your list of IM whores.
On your Website Traffic Lab you mention Colin McDougall’s Constant Conversation being a great resouce for getting tons of traffic and it, too, is FREE. Yes, I agree - his VEO is a very wise and future proof approach, and I have also actually followed this advice.
But I also just had an email from him extolling the virtues of TrafficSecrets2.
No-one is immune you see. :-)
They don't actually care too much about the product really - just their 50% cut of the profits.
In March 2007 I got so fed up of the constant barrage of emails for the same product from different marketers that I blogged about it and got a very warm response. Rick, if it's OK with you, here is a link to the archive of those posts which make for entertaining reading.
You are not on your own with your opinion of how things are online right now
http://www.michaelsherriff.com/blog/category/st...
Michael
Michael Sherriffs last blog post..New Affiliate Show Pro Software
I won't be buying either, and I agree with you that Jack Humphrey rocks!
Mark McCullaghs last blog post..Save Time Blogging With New Content Creation Software
The subjects you target are not "whores." That would imply they are victims. They are known as "List Pimps."
List Pimps are one of the more nefarious members of the Black Triad. Dangerous, abusive, and full of empty promises their job is to whore YOU (as their subscriber) out for their profit and pleasure.
The Black Triad: spot em', stomp em', & win in your business by knowing thine enemy http://snipurl.com/blacktriad
@JPmicek
I didn't name anyone - for a reason.
YOU have to decide who fits the description here.
On the Website Traffic Lab website I've listed Colin McDougall's free Constant Conversaton ebook - and it was pointed out to me that Colin was promoting John Reese's course.
This is part of the great paradox.
Howie Schwartz is promoting John's course - and I follow Howie closely and he has already put out tons of great information, courses, and tools for getting traffic.
I'm hardly immune to promoting someone's products for a profit, but when these giant launch days go down with TONS of bonus wars - it's hard not to wonder what is really going on?
Rick
I really wish you wouldn't have put ME in the center of your next hurricane!
For the record, until this post anyway, me and John are buds. My link for this comment points to one of my TS2 posts on Friday Traffic Report.
I think what people need to do to weigh this launch is 2 things:
1. Look at John's track record and the respect he commands around the web and the material included in this version of Traffic Secrets and decide for themselves, as John wants you to, if the course is right for them and their experience level.
2. Decide which "whore" is going to get your money for buying if you decide to buy. This is accomplished, I believe, by going through the affiliate link you think deserves the credit. I am almost positive John is using "last cookie" which means the last person to send you gets the credit.
Big launches and the value of John's product are two different things and should be considered separately in my opinion.
I might have one myself one day! :)
I'm certain any product John Reese puts out there will have valuable info., besides he's kinda cute.
But you have really won my heart with your comment . . . "Does this course contain real "secrets" or, is it possible, I can learn everything I need to learn, at a pace I can actually absorb and implement it - another way, for less money or free?"
I also love all the info I've gotten over the last year from Jack Humphrey, but I wish I'd learned sooner 1)FREE info is available on the internet, and 2) Buying and paying for training, good or bad, does me absolutely NO GOOD if it's just downloaded to my 'puter and never used.
Even though I'm a technically-inept, drowning-in-an-information-backlog, wannabe internet millionaire, I finally figured-out that all these big launches are just too much too soon. They can't ALL be as fabulous as they are reputed to be.
Thanks for saying it like it is! Now I can stop wondering where I'll ever find $397 to learn from the "Master" (who really is cute)!
Sincerely,
Brennan
Brennan Kingslands last blog post..Education Excellence ~ Someday Soon!
Kudos!
He's also a brilliant student of the game of Internet marketing and imminently qualified to talk about all phases of Internet marketing.
My basic yap here is the relentless whoring out of bonuses to get you to buy something so the sender can make a buck - combined with the whole launch hype.
What is really interesting is that the stuff in Traffic Secrets 1.0 is so powerful that I use technqiues from it every day as part of my fundamental approach to marketing online.
Rick
It's rare that I get on board with the Big Gun Guru marketers....
John Reese's Traffic Secrets 2.0 is one of those rare occassions....
What I find refreshing about John is the fact that his affiliate manager sent me a digital version of the course...
That is bloody rare with the guru club and....
from sounds of things from John's affiliate manager that this product will actually be on the market and for sale without the scarcity tactic of the "doors are slamming shut"
Anyway I do really like John's offer with Traffic Secrets 2.0....
No...I personally didn't find anything earth-shattering in the product but it is certainly useful information for those that need to learn the business...
Well back to being a marketing whore....or am I a marketing pimp....whatever the case....back to making some cash :)
It's rare that I get on board with the Big Gun Guru marketers....
John Reese's Traffic Secrets 2.0 is one of those rare occassions....
What I find refreshing about John is the fact that his affiliate manager sent me a digital version of the course...
That is bloody rare with the guru club and....
from sounds of things from John's affiliate manager that this product will actually be on the market and for sale without the scarcity tactic of the "doors are slamming shut"
Anyway I do really like John's offer with Traffic Secrets 2.0....
No...I personally didn't find anything earth-shattering in the product but it is certainly useful information for those that need to learn the business...
Well back to being a marketing whore....or am I a marketing pimp....whatever the case....back to making some cash :)
I have to say I'm not surprised. This afternoon I predicted someone would take this shot. I was commenting about it on Mark Ress's Ustream.tv show this afternoon. Good Luck with your efforts, this will certainly bring the Backlinks out of the woodwork.
I am surprised that you didn't know that John has priced this offering at $397, which is $600 less than the original 1.0 version. That's exactly the "couple of hundred dollars" you mentioned. Considering it will probably contain updated materials on things from V1, it should be worth that much,especially to anybody who didn't purchase V1.
Now I'm not saying to buy this or even if it's a good deal, just trying to provide my fair analysis. There are many people searching for answers in this market. Just as there are many, many good people freely giving of themselves and their experience, you included. The responses above reflect a few of them, Jack Humphrey, J.P. Micek and Coachdeb (Deborah Cole Micek) are aeasy to spot. I'm sure others will chime in with their comments, like Sherman Hu, Mark Ress, Michelle Trent, Ed Dale, Isabella Murphy (nichelady)and a bunch more. (sorry if I left you off the list, whoever.)
As for where the money will flow to, hopefully to all of us. People genuinely need Internet Marketing information, and those that can afford to pay for it, there are many options. Yes some victimize the unwary, but even that kind of learning has always been around. Its known as "The School of Hard Knocks." There will always be some who feel there is no other way. Also there will be some who feel if it doesn't cost tons, its worthless.
My opinion is free, no strings attached. Wonder what it's really worth?
Get Your Name On!
Mike
http://twitter.com/mike1mb
Mike Cunninghams last blog post..How Freddie/Fannie Fallout Could Affect Main Street - NYTimes.com
expected to see a list of 12 names.
I've actually gone trough a training guide that
covered much of the materials in the course, and
like TS 1, it's an encyclopedia (catalog) of
techniques, with some fairly detailed instructions.
Granted, everything is not news to me, but there
is enough new ideas that I feel comfortable
recommending TS 2, and even offering a bonus. I
assume that not everyone is adept at the
social networking sites and other methods of
traffic generation as I am.
Jack does put out some incredible information.
willie
Of course you're saying what a lot of folks are feeling. Good for you for stepping up to the plate.
Fact of the matter is folks, you signed up to somebodies list in exchange for information. If you don't like the fact that you signed up for marketing information and "secrets" and this marketer is actually marketing to you, OMG, then go to the bottom of the email, unsubscribe and carry on with your life.
If people would spend their time learning and putting into actual practice some of the free information available all over the interwebs, there would be much less whining.
Just one man's opinion.
;-)
Paul McIntoshs last blog post..Thirty Day Challenge Resumes
Never, of course, would I dare do such a thing. :)
Putting John Reese personally aside, I want to take this opportunity to whisper a message to all these big-time internet millionaires who no longer flood my inbox.
Please... do not condescend to me and say in your "news" (marketing) letters that you give one rat's patootie about me and my business. Go ahead and be honest. Use this copy instead: (You have my permission.)
Hey Sucker,
I was sitting here scratching my balls and drooling over my bank account. I have ten Mercedes and you don't. (I hope you at least have a loaf of bread.) Check out my new eBook, "B.S SECRETS EXPOSED!"
OK, I'm being snotty and sarcastic again.
Sorry. I really can NOT help myself. It's late.
Rick, we need to talk.
:)
Lorraine Grulas last blog post..Revver.Com: A Video Sharing Site That Shares the Profits Too.
It does illustrate the casual nature of the "SEND" (incl + affiliate link) as a non-thought for cash reward.
@Willie Crawford - I KNOW you expected to see a list of 12 names - and maybe we will actually generate such a list.
The main idea was that there actually are about 12 of the worst offenders - we can all make our own lists.
ONCE AGAIN: it's the nature of the marketing methodology and the unabashadly shameful trotting out of bonuses to capture a buck from the same flock that irks me - not John's course.
Rick
I'm on my own and picking up tidbits here and there.
Diane
http://tracersrusGBG.businesscard2.com
http://tracersrusblog.businesscard2.com
http://tracersrusSendOut.businesscard2.com
http://tracersrusPrePaid.businesscard2.com
It's always a risk of offending people when you try to be funny so let me say FOR THE RECORD, I have no doubt John's product is full of incredible info.
There are MANY internet marketers that I greatly admire.
I, however, insist upon being incorrigible despite an actual brain that often tell me to pipe down!
Lorraine Grulas last blog post..Revver.Com: A Video Sharing Site That Shares the Profits Too.
John Reese does sell to a market of people who have never seen all the great stuff you teach, or really been an online business. So if someone buys this, implements whatever he teaches, I'm sure it's far more valuable that many other things they could do with the money.
However, the hype by the in crowd with whatever "new Internet Secret of the Week" comes out gets overblown in the search for short term profits.. and makes me wonder what they would do to get steady traffic, leads and sales if they weren't playing this game.
Would a real business pay out 50$ on every product they introduce? There are better ways.
couldn't agree more with what you said especially...
"Does the person sending this to me actually give a darn how I come up with the money for this "must have" product - and whether it truly has a positive impact on my success - or if it is just another big box of stuff I will not be able to digest - putting me further behind in my goals?"
And I made this comment just new from being a victim of another high priced "mentoring" program which I am not allowed to ask questions and where questions are answered with, "Do you want to make money or not?" and "I have clients who paid me $50,000 and happy"...
Any attempt to ask questions will be rebutted with, "just follow my instructions and do what I say"...
I recently posted in my blog why people get 'scammed' and I think one of the reasons is fear. Fear of not having this information that may just transform their life.
Sorry for the rant as I had a really bad day fighting with the so called mentor. I had a good feeling I am kissing my hard earned money goodbye.
Why is it that people never learn from bad purchases???
The part about John changing his mind on SM is a good point but like you say things and people change and like all things on the net it seems to happen at lightening speeds.
Wonder how many you'll get for this one Rick
Jack Humphreys
Now, let's get down and dirty.
You said:
nternet marketing whores dressed in skimpy outfits (shocking subject lines)
Oh, you mean like,
"12 Biggest Whores in Internet Marketing"? :)
I'm still trying to figure out who the 12 are -- but maybe the inconsistency of your statement to your actions (headline, as stated above) blinded me to them. (Hey, I'll admit to being pulled by your headline.)
Now, was there, um, satisfaction when I got here?
Delivery on the promise?
Or is it just a way to slipstream into all the hoopla on John's promotion.
It's not a bad technique (riding the slipstream) -- but to point fingers at the person who is unintentionally bringing you this traffic is a bit disingenuous, don't you think?
I mean, if all your traffic techniques are so wonderful, why are you resorting to this sort of controversy to stir up more?
Surely, at the end of your free information, there's a market funnel? Listbuilding? You surely would be a poor marketer, in my estimation, not to do so.
What's the problem with people offering bonuses? I don't get it.
Now -- yes, it would be poor form if a marketer offered again what they promised to never offer again. I admit to not being a careful peruser of people's offers at the moment. But usually I believe the offers read something like "I've never offered this before." (And if I hear Jeff Walker use that phrase one more time it will drive me to distraction, LOL. Luv ya Jeff, but it's da twuth.)
If people want to read my blog, they can check it out at my site at NextDay-Copy.com (actually, I have 2; one for copywriting and one for Ed Dale's 30 Day Challenge.) I'm here to make a comment, not to get a backlink.
Rick certainly is doing a great job on creating conversations....
Lorraine - I sense a touch of bitterness to your post... Don't be bitter but rather observe those that make lots of cash and consider those emails as some free email marketing training...
The tactics used by the "gurus" are a fabulous marketing lessons...
Now if you take the same tactics and use them in marketing to industries (that are not so bitter and jaded) other than internet business stuff you will be thrilled with the results...
I always find it somewhat amusing that people will spend $10's or $100's of thousands on university education but when it comes to learning how to make piles of cash on the internet for less than $400 bucks there is such resistance and lashback over it....
Come on folks that's an incredibly CHEAP education!!!
OK... I gotta go have a scratch now :)
Did I get this right: It's ok to sell a load of crap if it's only a couple of hundred bucks and/or if your heart is pure?
Maybe there's a moral balance in offering a worthwhile bonus with a questionable product. (or vice versa.)
Steve Markowskis last blog post..Rick Butts Bitch Slaps Product Launch
http://www.clicknewz.com/img/traffic-secrets-re...
(That's me, the binder being the transcripts for the TS2 videos)
Traffic Secrets 2.0 is not just an info-product packed with your usual traffic techniques that will be "outdated by December". You’ll get lifetime updates to the course, private coaching & mastermind community access, the web-based action tracker system and more. So you are investing in “direct access” to John Reese and in your business long-term.
Granted, its not for everyone. Its not for the person who cant take the *time* to invest in the course - and the time to also take action on what they learn from it. In my opinion, its also not for someone who doesnt yet have a website, or hasnt chosen their niche market yet.
I'm trying to make those points loud and clear in my review of TS2. And I am offering no bonuses. I've always given honest reviews (and plenty of negative ones, at that) and tried to help my readers make the right decision for *them*.
I am a seasoned internet marketer, and have been working online almost as long as John Reese (12th year) -- and while I know much of what he covers, I've gotten great value out of the course already.
I'm with you on some points, mind you. You might recall my recent post titled The Current State of Internet Marketing. Just wanted to clarify a few points regarding my stance, and the course itself.
I love it. Myself, if I see a whore offering a condo on Maui or a black Hummer as a bonus, will actually consider becoming a John. Other than that, I just ignore the inbox glut that comes with these launches.
Whores take notice. Better spell out the condo or Hummer in your subject line, or I'll miss it. I'm driving real fast down your boulevard, and it will take a very sexy outfit to get me to slow down.
2 years ago there was a similar launch and that made me unsubscribe from all the lists.
I got tired of seeing the same text and "buy - buy".
The products are probably fine but I am doing well without them.
Btw Rick you write Christmas 2007 you mean 2008?
Do I win a prize, the first to notice it ;-) ?
Susanne Fs last blog post..Do you Get Trans Fat Without Knowing It?
You're unabashedly link baiting to keep your blog alive.
When you step back and look at it in the broadest terms,
you are just another sooted pot then; waving your IM arms to make a buck, while calling the kettle black.
Hmmm there was a bible story about a tainted crowd member pointing out the whore...
Do you really want sensationalized negative controversy
to be your legacy, or even the defibrillator for your blog?
Mr Butts, I have tough standards:
I've promoted 3 items in 3 years.
(No bonuses-I am helpful instead)
But there are some very excellent people who will offer
bonuses, whom you're insulting.
Good Health to You,
Ed
You and I both know that its time for the final solution!
I personally don't care what happens and I'm ready for the ultimate scorched earth strategy, and you know what I mean!
My fortune will not come from the pockets of Internet Marketers, so I say we Push The Big Red Button and do them all a favor and take down every gravity suit wearing pig in the process.
Poison Pill time baby!
Hell I'll do it just for shits and giggles!
Ready..............?
Let's launch it now!
MUUUhhaaahhaahahhaa
Nice. I already have the cred in the IM niche!
Hmm... Maybe I'll even ask the Gates Foundation for a grant ;-)
All success
Dr.Mani
P.S. Hey, Rick, I hope you aren't including those who are promoting "Safe
'Traffic Secrets' Sex" in your rant?! :)
P.P.S. Reading carefully, you'll notice Rick's NOT against TS2 - he's against
those hyping it to the sky and lacing their affiliate offer with ridiculous
bonuses! (Just pointing it out, in case anyone missed it)
P.P.P.S. - Uh-oh, just noticed Rick had clarified that in an earlier comment!
Oh well, bears repeating anyway.
I just like to point out the absurdities before us. And there are many! I become dizzy watching it all!
Marketing is something many people love to hate but it's the cornerstone of our world. FOR EXAMPLE: We've all poked fun at the ginzu knife commercials, but the dude made a bloody fortune. However, I'm not going waste two minutes watching the slicing and dicing demo for the zillionth time.
I've got better things to do.
One could argue that the 12 biggest whores of internet marketing are really the twelve hardest working, best connected and most successful internet marketers.
The point is, marketing is hype. Hype gets old. Tons of hype gets really old. Wasting time reading redundant hype is not a good way to run a business. You'll never get anything productive done.
Therefore, slutty and proud.
Really, you didn't hear?
Seriously, you didn't hear?
Well, check my blog for the full scoop!
J-Mo
Jason Moffatts last blog post..Two Mexicans Order Traffic Secrets 2.0
A warm connection, a smile and a hug are what gives life sparkle.
Sparkle keeps us alive and smiling!
I'm honored to share cyber sparkle with you!
Lorraine Grulas last blog post..Revver.Com: A Video Sharing Site That Shares the Profits Too.
1 - Many people scan a blog post without reading it - and comment on what they infer it to mean - inaccurately. It's tough to respond to a comment about what was not said in the first place.
2 - Some people read every word and over-analyze the meaning and inject their inferences all the same.
3 - Some people understand that as Freud once said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." I love these people.
4 - Some people are confused because there is no list of 12 names. I was hoping my smarter readers would pick up on the irony.
5 - Some people are so darn clever that can make hilariously funny, and fun, journeys out of my recklessness.
This includes today's winners:
* Moffatt and Kern, a dandy presidential ticket if you ask me
* Lorraine Grula - a woman who actually had an Ebay ad on her blog, for a turd that had a striking resemblance to Dick Cheney's face. Is that "stink bait?"
* Dr. Mani - proving that you don't have to be a Southern Causasian to take a pun and run with it!
*** To all my dear doubting readers who think I'm a one-trick-pony who racks my brain each day for a way to manufacture link bait from the latest launch, 2 thoughts:
A. I really do simply make observations on the "parade" in front of me - as you can probably tell by the posts and videos no one comments on.
B. If you CAN get people to comment a lot on your blog - isn't that kind of the point?
Love to all - and to all a good night,
Rick
I don't look like a John... I don't feel like a John... I don't walk like a John... I don't even scratch by [non existent] brass ones...
So, in reality... I am not a John.
I have, in fact, been a John many times. Here is the ugly truth:
In the beginning the bonuses and the hype and the fear of loss work. (on the John's of the world) Why? Because, they have not yet been jaded.
In the end, (I don't care how much you defend your whore-selves) it will come back to bite you in the butt. (Yup... I probably intended that pun)
You know who you are. We may have signed up to "get your information", but we did not sign up so that we could feel like a dumb John.
The fact that you don't "really" care that we think the bonus hype, the fear of loss hype, the never told secrets hype and the "I"m so rich hype", is B.S. - just irritates me.
So... go ahead and defend yourselves. Give away all your great free content. Tell all of us to stop trying to sell to the IM industry and to go after the "unprepared" niches.
There are bonus products and then there are really good bonus products. But... do I really need a bonus? Why isn't the product good enough to sell on it's own?
Oh... I know, it's worked so well before... why wouldn't you just keep doing it?
Do I give bonus products? Yes... I give bonuses when someone purchase one of my products. Am I a marketing whore? Nope. I don't sell OPP by laying on the sugar and piling up bonuses.
I give my own bonus with my own product, because I know it's of high value to the consumer.
If I think someone else's product is good enough to promote to my list... they will buy the product (or not) based on my recommendation. Not because I blew sunshine up their......
Debra THAT Public Domain Divas last blog post..Why Would Anything Old Enough To Be In The Public Domain Be Worth Anything Today?
This conversation assumes whores are BAD. I contend nothing in life is all good or all bad and the hypocrisies of conventional wisdom and stereotypes are easily revealed.
For example, we often judge success by money earned. So if whores are "bad" why do whores make significantly more $$$ than virtuous schoolteachers?
So answer me that one huh?
Does this mean the free market says sex is more valued than intellectualism? Help, the sordid facts have thrown me even deeper into the cynicism abyss!!!!
Lorraine Grulas last blog post..Revver.Com: A Video Sharing Site That Shares the Profits Too.
It's 1:30 am here in Denver and I'm off to bed.
For some reason the blog (semiologic pro) is not allowing any posts to post unless I approve them.
So until I re-emerge around 11 am MST today - your posts will probably queue up - but fear not - I vow to leave no post behind!
Your strange little friend,
Rick
PS: Stumble, Tweet, or otherwise bookmark or link to me and shoot me a note about it - I'll follow you around like a love-crazed puppy!
As a whoring insider, I can tell you this launch is very low key. He's giving us the nuts and bolts. Those are going all wild giving away their children, wives and zillion dollar software and seminar recordings are doing it all on their own volition.
Thanks for keeping the product-crazed IM public in check, Rick.
Alice Sebas last blog post..Complete Traffic Secrets 2.0 Review
Nicely done; plays into a lot of human emotions and general feelings around the Internet – which is certainly reflected by the number of comments from “big-fish” names.
First, I echo something Jack Humphrey and Dr. Mani already mentioned – the need to separate the quality of John’s product from the constant barrage of big launches. (this was for the careless readers who missed this - but somehow got to reading the 1027 comment to the original post ;-))
And while I agree with you that most information on traffic can be found for free (or nearly free) with a bit of research, I have to say there is huge value in having it conveniently organized in one cohesive course – just the value of time saved searching for this info alone is probably worth the price.
In terms of secrets… Well, everything is a secret to us – until we learn it. Here is my (slightly different than yours) take on this – John is known to test things like crazy. The guy lives to apply, analyze, tweak, and apply again different marketing strategies. So if I can get the discoveries based on thousands of hours of his research and testing and experience condensed into one course for a few hundred bucks – that’s a pretty reasonable deal. I think I would have to an absolute idiot not to find at least one thing in there - even if it’s just a new take on an old strategy – that I haven’t thought of before and will be able to use and get more than my money’s worth.
But what really gets me is today’s general attitude of “victimhood” most people buy into (and your post plays into it too!) I get sick and tired of people complaining all the time about being (over)promoted too – especially after they 1) originally opted into the lists with a pretty darn good idea that they will be sent promotions (why else would it be free!?), and 2) have an opt-out link at the bottom of each email.
Instead of groaning and moaning about how the marketers get rich by pitching you all the time on all the “newest and latest must have info and tools” why not simply stop supporting them? Instead of getting all pissed off and raising hell about “market molesters” (sorry, Coach Deb, it’s just such a great term to use here) why not simply remove them from your inboxes and giving them another red cent of your money?
Whatever happened to personal discernment? Do the marketers have some sort of magic potion that makes everyone buy crap they don’t need? Last I checked there isn’t a system out there yet that automatically whisks credit cards out of your wallet while you’re are asleep – or did I miss out on this new gizmo? Because on all my sites someone has to actually punch in the credit numbers to make the purchase. And, I’m assuming (maybe incorrectly) that since they have that credit card they also have a brain – and ability to make independent decisions.
Oh, one more thing… Just as a total disclosure… I don’t own Johns’ TS2 and I’m not promoting it. Frankly, I probably won’t even buy it because it’s not something I’m looking for right now.
Oh yeah, there is one other thing…I grossly oversimplified and generalized some pretty complex ideas here… But hey – so did your original post. After all, that’s what sells… OK, now I guess I better press “post” before reading this, regretting I ever wrote this, and deleting the whole thing… because it’s all for the sake of being devil’s advocate here.
Thanks, Rick, for stimulating this discussion… and I’m still looking for the 12 whores! Oh, and did you mention cigars? Where?
Smiles,
Adam
Hey Adam, thanks for your well thought out comment.
I want to reply on one issue you mentioned - because I think it invites me to clarify and I didn't think of this until now.
"victimhood - and complaining about being marketed to"
Your point is well taken - and I am leading the complaints.
I think that if I could state this all another way - it would be like this.
Dear Marketing Kingpin,
Yes, I got on your list because you offered me something for (free?) that required me to give you my email address and confirm you could.
I realize that you would market to me - and I'm cool with that.
I just would like to ask you to treat me with respect, and cut out the B.S. - and really think twice about what you send me.
Don't mail me every day.
Try including some good content without making me optin to yet another list - remember - we're already communicating?
And please PLEASE if you are going to give away that pricey product I bought a few months ago - to your new friends - just for buying your buddy's product now - consider how that makes me feel?
And maybe, try reading 1000 True Fans and think long term instead of just about delivery rates, open rates, conversion rates, and unsubscribe rates.
Thanks sincerely,
Your List
Holy crap. I think it's better than the original post (at last for me) because it exposes the real problem. Frankly, your last comment should be a required reading (and discussion topic) for all budding online entrepreneurs (especially affiliate marketers ;-))
When I wrote my free marketing report entitled "Constant Conversation" and yeah, my upsell to "Cashflow Conversation" I quoted the one and only Rick Butts in both books about creating online conversations....
Notice the number of comments Rick generates???
Yeah, there are always tons of comments on his blog....
Why?
Because Rick is a BRILLIANT guy....
Now come on.... Please... Oh please come comment in my blog :)
Yes, Rick does stir controversy....
But...
Rick DOES NOT stir controversy for the sake of controversy....
I have stayed at Rick's house and had some of the most amazing conversations with him....
Rick is WAY smarter than anybody gives him credit for...
If you doubt Rick Butts brilliance I suggest that you grab a copy of his book right now....
I have been reading The Safari Chronicles Volume One from Rick and have to say it is VERY thought provoking....
Rick you ROCK my friend....
Oh yeah......I will very likely be in Denver at the latest in December to see the Broncos Vs. Bills....
Interesting story there... I used to be a Bills fan...
I let that go as last season as my father was passing away from Leukemia was a Green Bay fan.... I briefly jumped on board to cheer with my Dad for the Green Bay Packers....
OK...No need to bore you all with my personal pangs....
But, I did let go of the Buffalo Bills as I spent the last night of my father's life watching the Green Bay Packers and my father's football hero, Brett Favre, take a Monday Night game on the last drive.....
Yeah... I saw my father cheer in a very weak voice for Brett as he threw a hail mary in overtime on the first drive for the game winning touch down....
OK... There is how I let go of cheering for a losing team....
Now back to our story....
I spent a few weeks in Denver to do some business... See my favorite rock band, Rush, play at The Red Rocks Amphitheater....
And as a result I absolutely fell in love with the city of Denver...
Heck... I paid $600k for my house in the suburbs of Vancouver BC and for that price I could live in the elitist communities of Denver.... Where here in the Greater Vancouver area I live only in the upper middle class neighborhoods...
Anyway....The Bills are playing the Broncos in Denver in December... One of my hockey team mates has tickets to that game and asked me to go....soooooo....
Rick, the latest I will be in Denver is December.....
But.... Have truck.... Have travel trailer.... Am going to be traveling....
Hmmmm.... Denver.... This summer.... Heck yeah... I think so :)
Almost missed your comment....
The question still remains....Do you like Rush :)
They rocked Red Rocks like nobody could....
Was fun chatting with you during your opening... Get in touch with me Scott...
Cheers....
Now everybody following this post go get some inspirational tunes from one of the greatest rock icons.... That's Rush folks...
Get:
1. Limelight
2. Red Barchetta
3. Driven
4. Tom Sawyer
5. Grand Designs
6. New World Man
OK, I could go on here.... But do definitely get the song Grand Designs....
Wait..... OK, I get inspired by music....
What and who inspires you????
Go forth and get inspired....
Inspiration is the key to making tons of freakin' cash....
Nuff of the rant now.... Scott.... Get in touch with me....
I fear for my desire for an internet business but on the other hand a few of the balanced comments gave me confidence theres a chance I'll succeed.
On the out side looking in.:-)
Your "Dear Marketing Kingpin" comment resonated with me. Lately I've done more unsubscribing than ever before for this very reason. I hate being emailed daily with offer after offer. Whatever happened to getting an email with actual content? Or at least a LINK to actual content?
Note to self: Remember what this feels like and NEVER do it to my list.
Deb Gallardo
The Story Ideas Virtuosos last blog post..Story Ideas - Two Resources
Bonuses just get you on another list, so I'm making sure to stick with John's idea of a clean, no backend, no upsell, launch and upping the ante with no BONUS promotion. :)
I am off to start a Warrior thread entitled "Who has the worst bonus for TS?"
I'm sure it will be picked up in the engines and thousands will be clicking through, lol.
Hope that you can get some sleep now after stirring things up again. I know I woke up, couldn't get back to sleep and so chose to sign on the pute and check out all the tweeting I could hear inside. And there you were. And here I am. One hour later, more wide awake than I was when I couldn't get back to sleep.
I agree with what you say about the dark side of the street that has become associated with the HUGE product launches. I have been exposed to enough of them now that I recognize them for what they are. A method, obviously successful, whereby those IMers with the biggest "black book" can go to their clients and hope to "tempt" them again.
I know that because I have been tempted before and have the left-over babies aging on bookshelves to show for it.
I know that I am the reason for most of that for not being a "man" and getting things up and going. But no need to get into the blame mode.
I feel fortunate that over the last two years, I have had the opportunity to work with Dr. Mike Woo-Ming and Howie Schwartz and now with Jack Humphrey and can recognize a quality package when I see it. But I cannot say that, as a person still seeking the success that can be made in the IM world, I do not fall under the tempting promises of the newest, brightest shiny thing to come along; especially if there are little gifts on the side.
I sincerely hope that when I am that success I hope to be I will remember what it felt like to be the IM virgin looking for that right someone who could satisfy my hunger and need for a new life.
So, Good Night Rick. Thanks for being a catalyst again for bringing out both sides of the street.
Sharon Bray-McPherson
I just wanted to say that "I" have the best bonus available which comes in my beautifully packaged hard (non-green) PLASTIC case with pretty colors titled...
"How To Be a Hoe"
If you wanna make your Pimp Daddy happy, get my bonus and he won't hafta pimp slap you in the absence of the po-po.
This has been a public service announcement.
Faithfully yours,
Velvet Jones
(First, Rick is a personal friend who I care for and respect. LOVE this debate. Let's learn while being open minded to all sides. Isn't that what America invades other countries for? To enforce Free Speech...hee hee. Dare I step into this Internet Marketing crossfire? Let's get to it then, shall we?)
Rick, you called out Internet Marketing 'gurus' as "whores" for recommending a new product from John Reese, a well-known and very successful (rich) online entrepreneur.
You defined the word 'whore' using Dictionary.com and applied it to those offering bonuses for buying TS2 from them. And, then asked these 2 questions:
1. "Does the person sending this to me actually give a darn how I come up with the money for this "must have" product - and whether it truly has a positive impact on my success - or if it is just another big box of stuff I will not be able to digest - putting me further behind in my goals?"
2. "Does this course contain real "secrets" or, is it possible, I can learn everything I need to learn, at a pace I can actually absorb and implement it - another way, for less money or free?"
Let's look at the context of ANY sale. Don't adults have their own minds, along with emotional and intellectual reasons for seeking out and buying products or services?
Aside from food and shelter, what's truly necessary in our lives?
It makes me wonder, does the car dealer really care about me and my family's safety, comfort and fuel economy or is it just another hunk of steel and alloy on 4 rubber tires, and (if I could afford it) with a "L" logo on it?
Does anyone really need an iPhone? Can they afford it, plus the monthly highway robbery for web access they can get for FREE at the Public Library? The credit card companies did the credit application for my customers, so is their 'affordability' factor my social responsibility?
Don't get me wrong, I despise cons and scams ripping off anyone, old or weak. Fraud and lies are wrong and illegal. And yes, respect your list. Respect your readers. If you slam and slam, they unsubscribe. Isn't this self-policing?
Regarding the second question, I haven't seen the government or the FTC busting down publishers' doors and arresting everyone from the authors to the printers for putting out another diet book of "secrets" for losing those extra pounds.
As far as absorbing the information at my own rate, my DVD player did come with these amazing Bonus buttons, besides Play, to help me - Pause and Stop. :-)
For decades, people have been offered the "No workout and no diet" solutions to weight loss, when there are plenty of free resources claiming to get the same result. Common sense is free too (but using it remains voluntary) as we know that "eating less and exercising more" is pretty much the key for most of us.
For the record, I did recommended to my own community
that they "check out" John's Traffic Secrets 2.0,
as I know him to be honorable, experienced and knowledgable. I did not offer any bonuses.
For complete disclosure, I did not fully review the entire product, hence my 'take a look' approach. I have seen the digital transcripts of the DVDs and did review the entire first edition of "Traffic Secrets" however.
Really, I expect that most will NOT buy Traffic Secrets 2.0 but they can LEARN from its marketing, beyond the "Launch" hype and "bonus competition." I recommend people check out the MARKETING TECHNIQUES, i.e. using online video, and the the PROCESS. If you like TS 2.0, fine, buy it too, but either way, you can certainly model a guy who's made a few GAzillion bucks online.
In summary, Rick you also blogged and proposed:
a) One compromises one's principles for being an affiliate of a "launch"
b) One is in it for the money (uh....Yes, this is a business arena) and "take a big fat 50% of your money for themselves"
c) Adding bonuses is "shaking their bonuses at you, (the stuff they swore would never be for sale again at their last launch), and cooing seductively."
Let's look at these too, one at a time.
For (a), if you know the person or business is offering a valuable, pratical product, how is one compromising on principals? Certainly, as long as you've done your due diligence, you should feel comfortable recommending something helpful, EVEN if it costs money and EVEN if you make a commission/profit.
When should one take part in the excitement and momentum of an event like a launch? How many Republican or Democrat t-shirts can I sell AFTER the election is over?
For (b), again..."Duh!" Unless you're a monk...
Wait, doesn't the Dalai Lama, participate in thriving, profitable publishing deals and business to raise funds for Tibet and world peace? Damn him too - Big Whore Monk!
Retailers mark up product easily, 100%. Jewelry is often sold at 400% mark up. It's a FREE Market. You don't have to buy your furniture, car, house, books, electronics, massage, car cleaning anywhere you don't want to.
Note: The original Traffic Secrets was $997 and this second, Traffic Secrets 2.0, drops to only $397, so affiliates will earn less. Yes, earn!
Affiliates built the list, presumably through some level of trust and respect, since prospects volunteered their names and email. It's the marketer's list to profit from and to protect and honor too.
Thers is also NO (obvious) backend to John's offer. There will be no other upsells, one-time offers, special bundles, forced continuity, optional continuity, immediate backend offers or anything. NOTHING else will be for sale.
For (c), bonuses have been part of promotions for eons. Marketing does encourage people to buy now. Building psychological pressure or just plain old 'opportunity' is not atypical.
And secondarily, regarding the 'scarcity' approach, how many times have you heard "For a Limited Time Only" from Walt Disney? They've been selling "Snow White" since when, around 1945?
What changes is the FORMAT. It's usually the technology - here from big screen, to VHS, to DVD and now Blue Ray. So, are we really buying the "content" or the "experience" each time?
It could also be the PERSON presenting the information, or providing the service. Why do I go to my "stylist" Lucky to get my hair done for $33 when I 'could' possibly get a similar result from Luigi the "barber" for $12 per lid shop? Packaging and Positioning (that I'm willing to even pay a premium for).
Finally, we sell CONVENIENCE of information gathered in one place in an organized, well presented format. For decades, some sell Government Grants info, which is FREE and available, IF you want to take the time and frustration to find it yourself vs. paying $69 to get right to it. I wouldwillingly pay the extra $40 to ride the same rides as others at roller coaster parks, but skip to the front of the line - anyday! (Busted.. I'm a Type A personality.)
For marketers, 'scarcity' is psychological application of supply and demand. Don't lie about it. Sure. Don't lie about anything (And, help the feeble, old lady with her groceries too while you're at it. Don't sell nuclear arms - unless you really, really trust the buyer either.)
What moral line starts and ends with us as marketers? Surely there should be honest, decency and respect. Let's put out the offer, affiliate link or recommendation and let the CUSTOMER decide from there.
If we misuse, abuse or otherwise mislead, our clients and customers, they can leave us, share negative comments and easily unsubscribe.
Nice debate and socially generated content all- around, Rick. :-)
Wishing you all much success,
Martin Wales
www.MartinWales.com
www.CustomerCatcher.com
(First, Rick is a personal friend who I care for and respect. LOVE this debate. Let's learn while being open minded to all sides. Isn't that what America invades other countries for? To enforce Free Speech...hee hee. Dare I step into this Internet Marketing crossfire? Let's get to it then, shall we?)
Rick, you called out Internet Marketing 'gurus' as "whores" for recommending a new product from John Reese, a well-known and very successful (rich) online entrepreneur.
You defined the word 'whore' using Dictionary.com and applied it to those offering bonuses for buying TS2 from them. And, then asked these 2 questions:
1. "Does the person sending this to me actually give a darn how I come up with the money for this "must have" product - and whether it truly has a positive impact on my success - or if it is just another big box of stuff I will not be able to digest - putting me further behind in my goals?"
2. "Does this course contain real "secrets" or, is it possible, I can learn everything I need to learn, at a pace I can actually absorb and implement it - another way, for less money or free?"
Let's look at the context of ANY sale. Don't adults have their own minds, along with emotional and intellectual reasons for seeking out and buying products or services?
Aside from food and shelter, what's truly necessary in our lives?
It makes me wonder, does the car dealer really care about me and my family's safety, comfort and fuel economy or is it just another hunk of steel and alloy on 4 rubber tires, and (if I could afford it) with a "L" logo on it?
Does anyone really need an iPhone? Can they afford it, plus the monthly highway robbery for web access they can get for FREE at the Public Library? The credit card companies did the credit application for my customers, so is their 'affordability' factor my social responsibility?
Don't get me wrong, I despise cons and scams ripping off anyone, old or weak. Fraud and lies are wrong and illegal. And yes, respect your list. Respect your readers. If you slam and slam, they unsubscribe. Isn't this self-policing?
Regarding the second question, I haven't seen the government or the FTC busting down publishers' doors and arresting everyone from the authors to the printers for putting out another diet book of "secrets" for losing those extra pounds.
As far as absorbing the information at my own rate, my DVD player did come with these amazing Bonus buttons, besides Play, to help me - Pause and Stop. :-)
For decades, people have been offered the "No workout and no diet" solutions to weight loss, when there are plenty of free resources claiming to get the same result. Common sense is free too (but using it remains voluntary) as we know that "eating less and exercising more" is pretty much the key for most of us.
For the record, I did recommended to my own community
that they "check out" John's Traffic Secrets 2.0,
as I know him to be honorable, experienced and knowledgable. I did not offer any bonuses.
For complete disclosure, I did not fully review the entire product, hence my 'take a look' approach. I have seen the digital transcripts of the DVDs and did review the entire first edition of "Traffic Secrets" however.
Really, I expect that most will NOT buy Traffic Secrets 2.0 but they can LEARN from its marketing, beyond the "Launch" hype and "bonus competition." I recommend people check out the MARKETING TECHNIQUES, i.e. using online video, and the the PROCESS. If you like TS 2.0, fine, buy it too, but either way, you can certainly model a guy who's made a few GAzillion bucks online.
In summary, Rick you also blogged and proposed:
a) One compromises one's principles for being an affiliate of a "launch"
b) One is in it for the money (uh....Yes, this is a business arena) and "take a big fat 50% of your money for themselves"
c) Adding bonuses is "shaking their bonuses at you, (the stuff they swore would never be for sale again at their last launch), and cooing seductively."
Let's look at these too, one at a time.
For (a), if you know the person or business is offering a valuable, pratical product, how is one compromising on principals? Certainly, as long as you've done your due diligence, you should feel comfortable recommending something helpful, EVEN if it costs money and EVEN if you make a commission/profit.
When should one take part in the excitement and momentum of an event like a launch? How many Republican or Democrat t-shirts can I sell AFTER the election is over?
For (b), again..."Duh!" Unless you're a monk...
Wait, doesn't the Dalai Lama, participate in thriving, profitable publishing deals and business to raise funds for Tibet and world peace? Damn him too - Big Whore Monk!
Retailers mark up product easily, 100%. Jewelry is often sold at 400% mark up. It's a FREE Market. You don't have to buy your furniture, car, house, books, electronics, massage, car cleaning anywhere you don't want to.
Note: The original Traffic Secrets was $997 and this second, Traffic Secrets 2.0, drops to only $397, so affiliates will earn less. Yes, earn!
Affiliates built the list, presumably through some level of trust and respect, since prospects volunteered their names and email. It's the marketer's list to profit from and to protect and honor too.
Thers is also NO (obvious) backend to John's offer. There will be no other upsells, one-time offers, special bundles, forced continuity, optional continuity, immediate backend offers or anything. NOTHING else will be for sale.
For (c), bonuses have been part of promotions for eons. Marketing does encourage people to buy now. Building psychological pressure or just plain old 'opportunity' is not atypical.
And secondarily, regarding the 'scarcity' approach, how many times have you heard "For a Limited Time Only" from Walt Disney? They've been selling "Snow White" since when, around 1945?
What changes is the FORMAT. It's usually the technology - here from big screen, to VHS, to DVD and now Blue Ray. So, are we really buying the "content" or the "experience" each time?
It could also be the PERSON presenting the information, or providing the service. Why do I go to my "stylist" Lucky to get my hair done for $33 when I 'could' possibly get a similar result from Luigi the "barber" for $12 per lid shop? Packaging and Positioning (that I'm willing to even pay a premium for).
Finally, we sell CONVENIENCE of information gathered in one place in an organized, well presented format. For decades, some sell Government Grants info, which is FREE and available, IF you want to take the time and frustration to find it yourself vs. paying $69 to get right to it. I wouldwillingly pay the extra $40 to ride the same rides as others at roller coaster parks, but skip to the front of the line - anyday! (Busted.. I'm a Type A personality.)
For marketers, 'scarcity' is psychological application of supply and demand. Don't lie about it. Sure. Don't lie about anything (And, help the feeble, old lady with her groceries too while you're at it. Don't sell nuclear arms - unless you really, really trust the buyer either.)
What moral line starts and ends with us as marketers? Surely there should be honest, decency and respect. Let's put out the offer, affiliate link or recommendation and let the CUSTOMER decide from there.
If we misuse, abuse or otherwise mislead, our clients and customers, they can leave us, share negative comments and easily unsubscribe.
Nice debate and socially generated content all- around, Rick. :-)
Wishing you all much success,
Martin Wales
www.MartinWales.com
www.CustomerCatcher.com
Great conversational point as always. I really love the fact that you've got the likes of Jack, Colin, Frank, Jason, Dr. Mani and others jumping in here with more comments. Cudos to you Rick.
On another note I think a new reverse auction strategy may be in order for future such launches. Taking your affiliate whore links observation to a new level may dictate that all those who are receiving 12 (or more) emails offering bonuses for the newest hot launch decide what product they "didn't" purchase from a guru in the past couple of months and then send them an e-mail telling the guru (whore) exactly what product or products they want for purchasing through his or her affiliate link.
I mean if it's a negotiation, why not make it a negotiation that benefits you in the way that you want to be benifited? After all if you are paying a whore, isn't it O.K. to ask for what makes you feel good rather than just taking what they give???
"Hey (Insert whore here) , (Insert another whore here)is offering ***** and you're only offering ****..
What else ya got?" Time to pony up whores. You started it.
I passed on promoting (and even if you're not an affiliate, you do promote things in a certain way!) - Traffic Secrets, Day Job Killer, Affiliate Evolution, Google Nemesis, Affiliate Project X ... I can name off one real IM product I've promoted. As my online name suggests, I am a niche marketer, not an internet marketer - my focus isn't on really selling people on Yet Another Technique.
My focus is on teaching people how to behave themselves appropriately in niche markets, and quite frankly - you can have all the traffic in the world, but if you can't speak to your "tribe" (as @CoachDeb likes to call it) without pissing them off, well...it does you no good.
Paging Dr. Obvious? After looking over the backlash, posts, twitter fire, and other associated craziness, I don't think this is an obvious point.
Bottom line, and the real takeaway - you MUST get better at finding your own niche as a marketer.
Write down what you are focused on TODAY, 6 months, 12 months, 3 years, 5 years, etc.
Write down what you HATE doing. If you cringe at the idea of PPC, STOP BUYING PPC HOWTOS. If you hate product creation and like being an affiliate, STOP BUYING PRODUCT CREATION HOWTOS.
Buy what you're truly focused on, and not what anyone is promoting.
That's all I got - I didn't feel like John Reese stomping today. Or affiliate marketer stomping. I'm just laying down the good word.
I passed on promoting (and even if you're not an affiliate, you do promote things in a certain way!) - Traffic Secrets, Day Job Killer, Affiliate Evolution, Google Nemesis, Affiliate Project X ... I can name off one real IM product I've promoted. As my online name suggests, I am a niche marketer, not an internet marketer - my focus isn't on really selling people on Yet Another Technique.
My focus is on teaching people how to behave themselves appropriately in niche markets, and quite frankly - you can have all the traffic in the world, but if you can't speak to your "tribe" (as @CoachDeb likes to call it) without pissing them off, well...it does you no good.
Paging Dr. Obvious? After looking over the backlash, posts, twitter fire, and other associated craziness, I don't think this is an obvious point.
Bottom line, and the real takeaway - you MUST get better at finding your own niche as a marketer.
Write down what you are focused on TODAY, 6 months, 12 months, 3 years, 5 years, etc.
Write down what you HATE doing. If you cringe at the idea of PPC, STOP BUYING PPC HOWTOS. If you hate product creation and like being an affiliate, STOP BUYING PRODUCT CREATION HOWTOS.
Buy what you're truly focused on, and not what anyone is promoting.
That's all I got - I didn't feel like John Reese stomping today. Or affiliate marketer stomping. I'm just laying down the good word.
Nancy Sutherlands last blog post..
For those like Rick who want to nudge marketing karma
away from embarrassing bonuses or hammering a list,
why not buy it from someone who has researched it
(not seen a review copy),
Not sent even 1 email.
And is offering NO bonus?
$397 is nothing for most of you, and even if you think
you know a lot of it, Reese is Not trying to
a cheap ebook with no new, valuable tips.
What your site returns on investment is up to you.
Plus you want to be "in the know" this week, this month, this year if you're going to be part of the discussion, right?
I'm Sure there ARE NewTrafficSecrets.com inside ;)
I offered a bonus but it's personal and related to adding value to traffic and not some pile of PLR or recycled stuff.
Honesty in Whoring :)
I dig John. He's one of the few IMers who actually responded personally to a message I sent him when he first joined Facebook. He seems to be of good stock. His presentations are quality & professional. And .... I'm not rushing out to buy anything from him... yet.
(Oh, and thanks to your advice, Rick, to only subscribe to a few quality IMers mailing lists, I didn't see any whore promos for TS2.0!! w00t! I came across the product through Twitter & FriendFeed - love that!!)
I do tend to agree with your perspective about "secrets" - it's a well-worn copywriting term, usually goes right along with "discover." ;) (Hey, I sometimes use 'em myself).
I watched John's video on his opt-in page (had to wait 'til I was back on higher speed internet... grrr!) I found it amusing he gave Facebook a cursory mention, zeroing in on his 5000 friends and encouraging peeps to get tons of friends 'cuz it was all about having the audience. Fair enough. Different strokes for different folks.
But, I've heard peeps call those annoying friend-gatherer types on FB "Facebook Ho's" - you know, the ones who add everyone and their dog?! Then they come and plaster a big siggy block on your wall. hehe
I don't mean John. But, I rather think the vast majority of those 5000 peeps already had a seat in John's arena. See, the cool thing about Facebook is it allows you to *expand* your community. And, for me, it's two way. It's not all about the audience and I'm on "stage." More, it's a cocktail party/business mixer where peeps are hanging out getting to know each other.
Anyway, I digress. Great stuff as always, Rick!
Cheers,
Mari
@marismith
Oliver Antoschs last blog post..Daily Internet Marketing Tip (14. Jul 2008)
@ Oliver
John Reese's integrity and the already established quality of his products and expertise are not on trial or even in dispute. John Reese just doesn't put his name on junk.
This blog post is about how affiliates and JV partners often promote these launches. And we've had a glut of them the first half of this year.
I am well-acquainted with someone who has 12 years' experience in IM who received an advanced copy of all the transcripts (as a JV partner). She says the quality is indisputable and she has found nuggets of gold for herself, especially in DVD 2.
And this information won't be outdated by Christmas, as was earlier stated, because the course comes with LIFETIME updates and access to a mastermind group that includes John Reese and his staff's interaction. That alone is worth 4 times the price of the course.
Perhaps the word "Secrets" is over-used these days, but unless you or I or anyone else out there is making the kind of money John is, and enjoying not only the successes he has under his belt, but living a life that allows him to travel in Europe during a launch for heaven's sake, then MAYBE HE DOES know some things the rest of us don't. The fact is, we don't know what we don't know. How could we? Let's keep things in perspective.
This is starting to sound like sour grapes to me, too.
When I have the cash, I will buy Traffic Secrets 2.0, because if I had it now, I'd get it in a heartbeat.
Deb Gallardo
The Story Ideas Virtuosos last blog post..Story Ideas - Two Resources
I too like John Reese, but I am not buying this new product.
I joined Stompernet, which is $800 a month and realized after a while that ALL the info they offer for that crazy price can indeed be found online for free. You have to be a little more persistent, and a good searcher, but it's all there. Needless to say, I left Stompernet, especially after I got major attitude from one of the two founders in the forum. A lot of these people act like they are God when it comes to this stuff, and it is really frustrating to deal with.
I also hate being marketed to in the same annoying way. Like if they say "limited time", "act fast for the bonuses", "we're only opening the doors for 2 hours", or here's one email subject line I got today: "I'll give you $50 to say "Traffic Secrets sucks", yet they're actually promoting the product!
And I particularly feel for the newbies who get suckered.
For the love of God, please make it stop.
John Reese is a good guy but I couldnt help but see the irony of this launch.
There are millions of biz owners that need a product like this, right? No one would dispute that.
This is a product about how to get NEW customers, NEW buyers to our websites. Yet how ironic that this product is being PRIMARILY promoted by an established network of 'product pushers'! Not that that in itself is wrong, but surely that approach is sending out a message that goes contrary to what the product is about. There are millions of potential customers - business owners that could have been reached apparently using the traffic 'secrets' - but instead, the tustee 'network' was employed. What message does that send to potential buyers of the course?! The message seems to be "YOU need to use these 'secrets' to promote your business but all I need is my network." I like John, but I would have had more respect for him if he'd quietly used the traffic secrets to promote the course to REAL business owners, then offer it on an ongoing basis to 'our world' without all the hoopla and hype that is created by promoters. I hate what launches have become - it's not the best way to serve customers in my opinion.
I don't tar everyone with the same brush because some promoters genuinely care about their customers, but for most it seems the dollar signs come first and they'll push every launch that comes their way. Why can't they understand that their customers WILL rebel at some point? In our world it's the same core group of customers who are getting hammered from every angle at least once a month - how long will they tolerate it? It seems so odd when there are millions of NEW customers out there! That's who I've been attracting using methods like my H3 system for eBay.
There is a world outside IM and I think we all need reminding of that sometimes.
End of rant.
Andrew Locks last blog post..Episode #12 - eBay Special - Discover the 7 Crazy Changes Going on at eBay & Learn What to Do Now
I think I have enough common decency to be polite, witty, and endearing and win the day for free.
I have gleaned an enormous amount of information that is very valuable from forums and the free stuff that Jeff Walker has encouraged everyone to give away (I suppose I should thank Jeff for that).
I also learn sooo much from Ed and Dan's thirty day challenge each year - thanks to the forums and the unpaid contributors again.
Don't misread that; thanks to Ed and Dan first - I have learned much there and nearly bought into the edge.
Any chance someone could put the TS2.0 up on bittorrent? If its so good that I suddenly make money then I will buy it(with the right bonuses of course).
You just let the cat out of the bag.
Now everyone knows the REAL traffic secret. :-)
Jonathan
Seriously, I was considering buying John's offer just based on his excellent reputation. However, the affiliate marketing/pimping strategy just cheapened the whole thing. I would have felt like a sucker if I had gone for it.
I'm sure John, Frank and the others involved are reading this, so please don't take offence but listen to what's being said and take action to change your strategies. If you really know the secret of a better way to do this, why not lead by example?
However, now I feel dirty. THANKS RICK!
I don't know and can't remember who's cookie I tasted, all of them I think :-(
Guess I better run my virus scan and go take a shower.
Stop talking and take a look at yourselves! You guys are so busy defending what you are doing that you are missing the point here. Listen to your market! How many times have you told us that? YOUR MARKET IS US,... all the "Not So Big Names."
We are telling you loud and clear that we don't like what you are doing! We are not whining, being victims, or complaining - we are giving you invaluable marketing feedback. Whoever listens, and responds by finding a better, more palatable way to market to us, will be a big winner.
This "the whippings will continue until morale improves" approach is not helping anything. We will still be pissed off and you will still be indignant.
The whippings will continue until morale improves... LOL
Rick
Bottom line - I have a brain and I use it! I may be new to internet marketing but I'm not new to the world and a hustle is a hustle whether it comes to my door trying to sell me a vaccuum cleaner or appears in my Inbox.
Yes -- I signed up for the FREE stuff -- so I get it that I'll get a pile of junk afterwards if I don't hit UNSUBSCRIBE! I have all the power I need in 1 finger! : ) Not brain surgery here! I've made good choices so far and some bonuses HAVE hooked me in -- but not if I wasn't half-way to the BUY NOW button already!
That being said -- I have to agree with Richard's comment that I would be THRILLED to see WAY SHORTER sales pages and FAR FEWER emails but as usual -- if the masses keep going for the same old same old -- then I guess I will just keep unsubscribing!
One last THANK YOU -- THANK YOU for all the free stuff -- THANK YOU for every person out there that has put VALUABLE USEFUL content out there for free because some of us folks are willing to do the work to find it ***AND** APPLY IT! : )
Blessings all!
Why don't you just come out and say you're so pricked
that others beat you to getting those $200.00
commission checks?
We already know IM is a guru inner-circle game. When
John makes $200 payable to each affiliate sale, and a
flood of them whore-pimps start falling over themselves
for a piece of the pie, should we be surprised that
our inboxes are getting flooded?
John is just cornering the market with his latest
release. Assuming what he is doing, is to one-up
Stompernet, with this grandfather thing; and with
his upcoming income website...
Those who jump in to sell TS2.0 will likely stand
to gain from future upsells and backends, ain't
that lucrative considering his quality programs
are always high priced.
Again, no surprises.
Perhaps you'll care enough to share what you
can learn from his TS2.0 forum with us in the
future... this will
make future visits to your website all the more
worthwhile.
Thanks Andrew Lock! Your comments should make
everyone here realize it's all the JV Partners
who have lists that will win the IM game.
For one, they have the reach to make all
business owners' ears stand up. These Partners
are the frontline people who will cascade
down all the important messages to the rest
of the pack, and to the ultimate users.
This Traffic Secret is meant for people without
lists, without influence, the 2nd or 3rd Tier
Players who scrounged for itty bitty traffic.
Go for the list. This technique is just too
powerful to ignore. Have we not seen enough?
It works and it pulls in the moolah.
But if we sell lame crap overpriced products...,
the whole wide world will swarm back and bite off
our skin. And it'll be well-deserved.
Pricked? Is that a verb or adjective? I've never heard of it - but I promise you I am not jeaous about the success or money anyone made on John's launch.
You sure don't know me.
I clicked on the URL you put in for your name - and it redirects to an offer for 200 Cody Moya products with Resale Rights offer.
Good luck with that.
Rick
Good job with this, man! I'll be waiting on your new release entitled...
"Pricking Pimped Pimps - Hoes Will Follow"
BEAUTIFUL personification of what happens when you spill the Ripple. :)
Remember "Scientific Marketing"? That was written back in... what?... 1943? Yeah; Reese, you have to give the man his propers because he's the Mark Joyner (2001) and Allen Says (2000) of 2008.. then there's Andy over there, too.
Yet, what's all the hooplah about really? I mean, I don't see Big "G" or Mr. Ballmer making any bids on INcome.com. Every pond has its big a** catfish, in it. Question is, will the catfish continue to swim in the pond or try and swim UPstream and stop sucking up all the oxygen?
Seems that's what everybody is preaching about; on either side of the fence. "I can't breathe!" But, then again... when the Japanese rebuilt cars, TV's and other electronics with prettIER packages.. most got 'pricked' at them, too. Due to nothing else other than the fact that they had the 'resources' to REpackage what had already been done.
Yeah, we can find all that is deftly scribed in TS2 online, for fr.ee; but the reality is, very few would go looking for it with the fever of the 1800's gold miner.
Well, its all interesting to me because the big shift is right around the corner, anyway. I'm trying my best to get ready for that and have open arms for anyone who crosses the river.
"The List" will ALWAYS be the 'end' to the means; frustration sets in when the environment changes and the 'means' TO that end don't work anymore in the traditional sense. This ain't the early '00's; its been 8yrs already and there's been way too much innovation by the REAL players for the Squeezers to really work like they did, before. Thus, the frustration. Remedies are coming, though.. can't stop innovation.
Even Forbes just said, "Email is so 'last decade'."...
hmmm...
Peace, Love & Prosperity (everybody)... and Rick, keep makin' 'em think, my Brother. :)
William
Read and commented on the latest posts first.
I love your consistency, Rick Butts.
The comments of some of the Esteemed Audience
definitely follow a politically correct pattern.
Your observations are so on the target of what is wrong in this La La Land of Instant Gratification Seekers.
Our members succeed because they seek knowledge, Master-mind creative ideas, and make quick decisions to apply Massive Action.
Most have Invested little in the seeking knowledge part, because we always point to where the information is available for little or no cost. Libraries are still open, amazing place.
Thank you again and I love the wonderful comments you receive.
P.S. How does one get CommentLuv to work? I have it in my WP widgetsection activated
If I had one nickel back from each of the "must have" stuff I've purchased, I could probably retire. And I can count on one hand the information and programs that I am actually glad I bought and continue to use.
So here's my updated purchasing protocol and it seems to be working well for me so far.
I don't buy a program or information until I need it (that way it gets used instead of just getting filed for "some day," clogging up my computer. AND, I try to see if what I need is available for free (much of it is, and some of the free stuff is better than the paid stuff).
AND I try to read some real reviews (not the fake reviews used by whores to sell product) to see if people really are happy with it.
Oh, and one more thing. I've returned a product or two that was truly over-hyped cr@pola. It's interesting to see who honors their guarantee and how quickly. A couple of the Big Boys took FOREVER to refund. I just scratch these folks off my list for future buying no matter how great their "latest new thing" is supposed to be.
Trying to protect my online honor,
Dana
Until recently, I rarely had more than -$2 in my bank account. I would starve myself just so my kids could have what little we had left to eat. I had personal crap going on in my life that I allowed to get in the way of me working.
So when some shmuck comes along and tries to trick me into buying a product that may or may not work, I don't appreciate it. I don't want some copy and paste email that everyone else is sending out. I don't want some crappy bonus they put together in two minutes using five year old tactics that don't apply to today's standards.
I want an HONEST review, an understanding of who this product is right for, and who it isn't. Instead of saying "You HAVE to have THIS product or you're going to kill yourself", I want to see "This is the kind of product for someone who is just starting out in the internet marketing industry. If you already have experience marketing online, then you may want to skip this one."
I'm not talking about Traffic Secrets or any other product in particular, I'm talking about the methods that these affiliates use to lure people in.
Think about the person you're trying to sell to. Realize that they ARE a person. And don't insult me with your crappy emails while trying to take my hard earned money. I'm smart enough to make the decision to buy on my own, it's your job to give me the information I need to decide if it's right for me or not.
If you want to know how to do it properly, check out Alice Seba and Lynn Terry. Ok, now I'm done ranting. Sorry.
Cassies last blog post..Thwirl versus TweetDeck
Thanks for taking the time to share such personal thoughts. And William - personification - what a tasty word to read first thing in the morning!
Friends warned me that using the "W" word and other edgy ideas would alienate people - I'm finding that there's a nice world full of people who don't mind using real language.
Thanks
Rick
Love your blog posts! Starting to think the ones who get so offended have a guilty conscience? (or at least a streetwalker outfit in the closet?) Although I am new to this world, I am getting the feeling that you are the guy that EVERYONE is friends with but NO ONE talks about at parties!! Ahhhh the irony of being political, right? LOL Just kidding, love the posts, had to subscribe, now addicted.........
Authenticity ladies and gentlemen, is what the above expressed frustration is all about. The entire world is so fake. I know, I worked in TV for eons. I was the one doing the faking! Fooled ya all!
People just want the plain truth so they can make a decision but instead they get sky tricks and manipulation. Horse-hooey is you will.
Internet marketers are some of the best marketers around.
Best marketing = the most manipulative marketing.
Nobody wants to be manipulated but we are bombarded anyway.
Duck and cover folks!
Life sucks and then you die which, although sounds quite crass and pessimistic, actually means...QUIT COMPLAINING AND GET BACK TO WORK. Reality bites. Get over it.
Just being my practical self.
I no longer waste my time reading horse-hooey!
Instead, I waste my time writing horse-hooey on Rick Butts blog.
There's a HUGE difference.
:)
Lorraine Grulas last blog post..Revver.Com: A Video Sharing Site That Shares the Profits Too.
First, RE: Traffic Secrets 2
----------------------------
TS2 is more than just SocialMedia - there's a lot of really good, up to date ideas in there; Reese is only charging $400; not $2k as the Guru-trend was flying - I think it's a *very* fair price; And here's the kicker -- you get LIFETIME UPDATES. And he didn't have a JV Contest either (as another reader commented).
So, Rick Butts (whom I think Kicks Butt and you know I love you) - John Reese may just be smarter than you thought. ;-)
And seriously, I think it's irresponsible of you to not do just a little due diligence before putting that out there (you *do* have newbies reading your posts -- see "Ben" above).
Secondly, Whores vs Pimps
-------------------------
And JP - I dunno - who says "Whores" are victims. I think that's baloney. As a potential list-whore myself -- I know what I'm doing and why. And I say 'potential' mostly b/c I don't think I've compromised my principles.
Lemme tell you something though, Rick. (and just b/c I use your name here doesn't mean I'm angry -- I know it reads that way, but I'm actually not).
Here's the deal... Doing something "extraordinary" is *REQUIRED* now during a launch. Firstly, some of these products are only available for a day or two (granted, made-up scarcity -- but it's still there) ...
If you don't do a bonus, you're dead in the water.
Case in point -- I promoted TS2 (yes, I read over the transcripts of the product first) -- I just sent 2 emails, and only made a handful of sales. I know for a *fact* that if I would've done a bonus, a teleseminar, a webinar, a live Q&A, a review ... just one or any combination of those things ... I would have gotten four or five times the results.
Why didn't I?
Not because I felt like any of that would be 'compromising my principles' ... More because I was lazy (or maybe busy) and a little tired of having to come up with bonuses all the time. So, actually, I was compromising my principles by *NOT* giving more.
Bonuses work especially well during launches because the market has learned to go look for 'em now. (HINT: If you're doing any affiliate marketing -- bonuses also work ANY TIME.)
Thirdly, I scratch my ass, not my balls
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Lorraine - I think many of the 'internet millionaires scratching their balls' do care. I've put Rick's feet to the fire on this before and even he agrees. But this really is a two way street. I whole heartedly believe that most of the stuff out there actually does WORK. But what happens is someone buys it, lets it sit on the shelf, buys the next thing, repeat.
I remember talking to a woman at a WIMME event in San Francisco... she said she was frustrated b/c she hasn't made $1 yet and she's spent over $6,000 on information products.
I said "did you take action on any of it"?
"YES!" was her response -- "I just said -- I bought $6000 worth of info products".
I've run into many people with this same mentality. So, it really is a two way street. I think the 'list whore road' is certainly getting traffic jammed. I'm not defending that here. Just want there to be some understanding that this goes both ways.
I had someone come to a retreat at my house (I hope he doesn't see this, bless his soul) -- he was 10's of thousands in debt and somehow put the money together to get to my house...
He had no technical skills -- couldn't put up a website to save his life. And didn't have the money to do so. (We offered to put one up for him at no charge...) But one of the other speakers pointed out to me behind closed doors - - - "hey, he had money to get here, money to buy other info products, but no money to get a web site set up" -- no money to set up his business!)
Maybe nobody's teaching "priorities" or "action oriented success", I don't know. But I run into this mentality alot. So, I dunno - I'll stand by my 'internet millionaire' friends because I know many of them personally -- and many of them DO indeed care. And yes, they're in business to make money -- why not sell affiliate products from the other people they know?
Harris Fellman tries to turn in his high heels
---------------------------------------------
Anyway, all that said I'm going to be attempting to turn over a new leaf. You heard it here first...
I mail too many offers to my list with too little content. (Although, something I hear in the back of my head, even as I write this is "you don't make money if you don't promote to them". And a brotha's gotta pay the bills.) It's not to 'get the little guy' -- it's really just b/c there's so much out there... friends come out with new things all the time ... what's a whore to do?
But I know that I'm built for Social Media -- I've known it for a long time. I have way too much fun doin' characters and crackin' jokes to *not* have a better presence. I've been trying for two years to put the energy towards it -- my blog sucks, I steer clear of Facebook & Myspace, and I thought Twitter was a waste of time (okay, I just started on twitter yesterday -- maybe it *IS* -- but I've heard too many good things from ppl I trust to keep ignoring it).
FYI - partially thanks comments in your Stomper post -- I started looking harder at twitter and finally jumped in. (You'll find me *not* to be a whore there I think - click my name above or here http://twitter.com/harrisfellman - if you wanna follow me ... should be fun, funny, and maybe even profitable for you sometimes.)
Anyway - thanks again for getting the conversation goin' Rick.
Peace,
Harris
Harris Fellmans last blog post..harrisfellman: @JohnGuanzon Need 2 look like "Sal" soon (see sitestealer.com or santasal.com) -- hair's not growing fast enough & my wig is in 3 pcs!
Thanks for stopping by and reading my Blog Post, I think it presents a valuable lesson that many can learn from and shows how social media is changing the way launches are perceived and that old school tactics are leaving many people with a bad taste in the mouth
I want everyone to know that Harris has been kind enough to help me personally via Skype and telephone and email - to get through a very difficult time as I was losing and eventually lost my father to cancer.
You know how hard it is to be creative and productive when you are emotionally a wreck?
Still, you try - and I know that Harris put up with a lot of my hand wringing about "what to do with my career and life" and gave me MANY great ideas and resources, some of which I am implementing only now.
What you said here Harris - and I say your name here instead of screaming it out in gay bars, (LOL), was dead on - right on - and true.
When we discussed the ethical implications of selling products that teach people how to make money online - vs - what they do with them later ie: if they ever actually implement, we agreed this is totally NOT the fault of the marketer.
I'm pretty sure that somewhere in here I have said on video and in print that nearly ALL Internet marketing products work, it is just up to us to implement.
It would be a mistake for me to lay full blame at the feet of marketers for creating lots of new stuff to buy - when in the end, IMHBAO - in my humble but accurate opinion - it is the responsibility of each of us to get our own sh*t together and implement.
We are only "victims" if we choose to let ourselves believe that.
But, as others have commented here - this market is wickedly deadly at making so many things appear to be easy, quick, and simple, (even if they include a caveat about requiring work.)
Thanks Harris for your thoughtful comments here.
I'm going to go follow you on Twitter. You are one of the most hilarious and creative guys I've ever met - if you'll follow me back?
http://twitter.com/harrisfellman
http://twitter.com/Rick_Butts
Harris Fellmans last blog post..harrisfellman: @johnreese - way to go, John - saw your email re: terminating affiliates w misleading ads (I call it the "John Reese Slap" <G>) pz
Have you boys no shame?
Input on the subject of, "Well Ma'am, did you even read the frigging eBook?" as a response to the debate of WHOSE FAULT IS IT ANYWAY? between gurus and their lists debated herewith.
I have found the sum total of everything one needs to operate a profitable business on the Internet to be more than has ever been encompassed in one product. Or I should say, any one product that I am aware of. I am certainly not familiar with every product.
HOWEVER, that's not a critiscm, because I think the reality is that running a PROFITABLE BUSINESS on the Internet is more complicated than most people care to admit, especially when they are writing sales letters.
It's not that I haven't done anything. I'm a nerd. I LIKE to read. I read a little of everybody and got confused as heck. I tried a little of everything.
I've had a total of about 15 active websites up of various styles. (Some adsense sites, some mini sites, some authority sites) and for half a dozen reasons, they've all been financial flops. But I keep trying. I keep learning. You know that damn turtle ended up winning the race.
Maybe the trouble is I am just a moron who can't do anything right?
Yeah, sometimes I can be a real lame brain, but overall, no, I was always the one throwing the curve off in school.
Depending on what individual talents and experiences a person brings to their effort of Internet Moguldom, there's a lot to learn and information becomes obsolete rapidly.
So it is not that I truly feel like any particular Internet marketer pushes crap and doesn't give a pootie about us struggling wanna-bes out here, but I absolutely believe that often the reality is glossed over in favor of marketing hype.
I mean, what kind of conversion is this copy likely to get:
"Exhaust, Frustrate and Bankrupt Yourself Learning the Ninety Gagillion Things You Need To Know to Succeed Online .
Same reason they don't sell diet books called "How to Eat Yucky Vegetables and Exercise Your Fat Ass Off."
So we're all still fat.
ALSO, I do have to say that the ability to teach so that others fully comprehend is actually a fairly rare gift. That's my nice way of saying that I have seen some mighty poor junk passed off as awesome content worth at least $97.
I definitely feel that some of our internet marketing guru friends let their egos get the best of them as they review the effectiveness of their own work.
Don't we all?
Did anybody read this far?
I'll shut up now.
Luv,
L.
Lorraine Grulas last blog post..Revver.Com: A Video Sharing Site That Shares the Profits Too.
1)
If you're getting multiple offers from lots of affiliates for a big promotion, then you're on too many lists. You chose to subscribe and have had the option to unsubscribe since you signed up. That part is under your control, and no amount of complaining about how many emails you're getting about TS 2.0 will change anything until you take action.
2)
What do hucksters, hypesters and schlock products have to do with John Reese and TS 2.0? If you're upset with his affiliates, TAKE ACTION and tell him. Better still, tell THEM.
But moaning and groaning HERE is less likely to change anything long-term. John's integrity and the quality of his products are above reproach. To lump him together with any Tom, Dick and Jane who are promoting every product down the pike with tantalizing bonuses, etc. is grossly unfair. I would buy TS 2.0 in a heartbeat, given the funds or credit, neither of which I have.
3)
Who among the spleen-venters here is an affiliate marketer? Or who is or has been an aspiring affiliate marketer? If you're in either of these categories, you're a hypocrite calling affiliate marketers whores.
Affiliate marketing is the backbone of the internet. Getting a commission for making a sale is a time-honored business practice.
And if you're on that many internet marketers' lists, then you must be planning to make money online. Therefore, if you could, you'd choose to make boatloads of money. So let's be clear here. You're studying to be a marketer. Or maybe you already are. Then are you planning to give away all YOUR products for free? Do you NOT plan to make a profit?
If you DO anticipate earning a living wage, then stop criticizing people who are implementing strategies that WORK and "go, thou, and do likewise."
But here's the problem. Rick, with his pot-stirring controversial post has single-handedly set back affiliate marketing to the dark ages.
Good, legitimate, responsible marketers have lost thousands of dollars and stand to lose even more in the future because of this controversy and resulting perception that if you promote someone else's product you're a blood-sucking, money-grubbing, street-walking prostitute.
Here's what Rick had to say in his own words in this post at http://rickbutts.com/288/what-if-i-told-you-the...
"For the last 2 years I've survived financially from affiliate marketing and reviewing products, while being infinitely frustrated with the state of Internet marketing as is well documented here.
So by not really being in "the game" (aggressively squeezing names and mailing for the big launches) I've really not prospered anywhere near what I could have - and that is my own fault."
You are, Rick, by your own definition, an affiliate whore, according to this confession above.
So instead of "being in the game," as you said, you chose to stir up this controversy, having all these other people who aren't in the game themselves apparently (because if they were, they'd be out there making money and not here) and are jealous and frustrated, so they tell you "You're the man." I'm not going to do that.
I think what you have done is smeared good people in your quest to be in the spotlight. I hope it's worth it to you to know that many people who could have benefited from John's product will never buy it because of you -- AND YOU HAVEN'T EVEN SEEN IT OR REVIEWED IT, yet you declared it would be outdated by Christmas. Considering John is offering lifetime updates, that means TS 3.0, TS 4.0, etc. will be FREE. So it will NEVER be outdated. Plus he and his staff will participate with customers -- assuming you haven't driven them all off -- in a mastermind group.
And I hope all this attention focusing on you, Rick, is worth it in that you have stolen income, which you yourself COVET, from others whose livelihood is promoting quality products as affiliates. I personally know good people who have lost thousands of dollars because of this controversy you stirred up.
You're like a little kid who sees someone else succeeding, and so you start bad-mouthing him/her, making claims, stirring the pot, and getting all the attention onto yourself. It's a childish, selfish tactic and I'm appalled that you have stooped to so low a level and yet dare to drag every affiliate marketer through the mud by calling them whores.
And BTW, it's not that you used the word "whore," but that you are name calling with it, labeling people as such, most of whom you don't even know.
If you put as much creativity into your business as you do into engendering controversy, you would have made that million dollars online several times over.
Fortunately, such attention as you have garnered here is fleeting.
There's only so much tweaking you can do to this thread until it dies a natural death. But the interesting thing is, the furor will die down and John Reese will still be selling his TS 2.0. There's no time limit. There's no "I'm selling only XX copies" limitation. He's got the track record and the longevity.
Poetic justice is sweet.
Deb Gallardo
The Story Ideas Virtuosos last blog post..Story Ideas - Don’t Throw Them Away
What a bitter rant.
What's unfortunate is that you totally missed the point of the POST. (not to be confused with the comments)
And, like a small percentage of the readers, you turned it into some kind of negative review about John or his product, which it totally is not.
I could detail this - but it is kind of like explaining a joke to someone who failed to get it on the telling.
I'd heard you were a great sounding board and compass. I'd hoped that would be true and am really disappointed to see you choose to swoop in late and hack at this discussion with such cutting remarks.
I'll be the first to admit I've whored out my list from time to time in the past. How do you think I got the perspective to write this? It takes one to know one!
Finally, the people who took the discussion off in their own direction - just like you did - are making comments - not to be confused with my post.
It is an error reason to combine them - and then slam me as if I wrote them all.
Maybe I'm just interpreting Rick differently than you are, but it looks to me like you've missed the real
point(s) he was trying to make, to wit:
1.) If you ARE an affiliate marketer and believe you have a valuable product, for cryin' out loud could you please write your own sales letter (with "reasons why" I should buy this and who it is really for), instead of spamming me with the cookie-cutter sales letter supplied by the seller?
And while you're at it, tell me if you've actually used this product or have only read the sales page, as I have.
That's being honest. It's also being a good affiliate marketer instead of a spammer.
2.) If you are an affiliate marketer (and I understand you're trying to sell me stuff in your newsletters), you'll make a lot more money AND secure my trust if you aren't pitching absolutely every launch/JV product that comes down the pike (again, all with the same sales letter).
I'd like to hear "I used this product and feel that it isn't worth the $gazillion price tage for most people" OR "Truth is, I haven't used this service, but I'm going on the reputation of the seller." Or how about a flat-out "I don't think this ebook is worth the $297 pricetag. You'll find similar information for a lot less money at (fill in the blank)"
In other words, give me some REAL reviews, insights and information, not just a bunch of spammed sales letters. I'll trust you dearly, and spend money with you over and over. But steer me wrong on even one lousy product (especially one where I can't get my refund), and you've lost a customer.
I agree with you (and Rick has said this before). If you're getting too much of the same junk, that little "unsubscribe" feature works really well. I've peeled my IM newsletters down to a handful, and I'm getting better information in far less time.
Rick hasn't "single-handedly set back affiliate marketing to the dark ages." Geez, now he's going to have a HUGE head thinking he's got that much power! ;-)
He's simply called on folks to be good --- not whorish --- affiliate marketers. Why would anyone have a problem with that?
The Truth can really bite some times, can't it?
P.S. I didn't "get" that Rick was "dissing" John Reese and his new program. Did I miss something?
I just re-read your comments and wanted to add.
1 - I don't think for a second that I kept one single copy of John's course from being purchased by someone who "really needed it."
2 - Poetic justice is sweet? (This caps the "story" you invented where I fade to cyber dust while John Reese prevails timelessly - rising above my yapping at his heels like a small angry little dog. I guess you ARE the Story Lady because this whole thing is a wild fabrication based on your conclusions that just aren't true.)
3 - I like John Reese and as far as I know - even though he didn't invite me to trip the light fantastic to Europe - we are friends.
4 - Even John had to put out a **WARNING** to "some people" who were promoting his course too aggressively.
5 - "Rick you are like a little kid bad mouthing" Huh? Have you ever read commentary? Do you not see how burned out the market is from these heavy handed "everybody all mail NOW!" launches?
6 - "But moaning and groaning HERE is less likely to change anything long-term" - uh, isn't that exactly what you are doing?
You are welcome to return here - to this desert wasteland blog - and apologize.
I'm all for discussion, just as long as the facts emerge.
Thanks all,
Rick
Very well said.
You have captured my intentions and message here.
It's hard to ignore how the marketplace (people who are on the receiving end of these emails) are feeling and reacting to this slam-launch-fest.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond.
Rick
Regarding John's integrity, and his stance with his affiliates, I've published his latest email that went out to TS affiliates on Friday night. You'll find it here: http://www.clicknewz.com/1625/john-reese-affili...
I have some confessions to make. And I received your email, Rick - I'll post both (confessions & response) at my blog before the days end.
Great discussion here. I am a buyer, a product developer, and an affiliate marketer - giving me a broad perspective of this issue as a whole - and I am walking away from this thread (having read every single word) with much to think about.
When the emphasis shifted to social marketing spam as the way to get traffic, I bailed out of the whole IM scene. But now that I've had time to fail at an offline business, I'm back again to see if there's anything I can do in good conscience, I'm going to follow some of the links in the original post and the comments to get a flavor of what's going on.
However, since I absolutely detest video as a way to learn something, at least I won't be tempted to buy (and perhaps won't benefit from) TS2.
Love you.. Love John. Solid information and insight all around.
In this case, I believe Dr. Dana Myatt summed up our roles and responsibilities as affiliate marketers brilliantly. (Dr. Dana, you can write for me anytime!)
However, how people react to canned emails from those affiliates who can't be bothered to make the time or effort to inform their subscribers about the value (or lack thereof) of a product, yet tantalize with 3 million bucks worth of rehashed crap that no one will ever use, is entirely up to them.
If they want to spend their way into the poorhouse on the basis of ridiculous hopes and worthless bonuses (because they're not on your list or mine), that's their business and folly.
We can't control the actions of others... and it's doubtful that the world's oldest profession - or its manifestation within the affiliate marketing industry - will end anytime soon.
So, all any of us can do is our best - and hope that the bulk of subscribers on our lists are reasonable, responsible adults.
Cheers,
Ros
Rosalind Gardners last blog post..John Drops the Hammer on Affiliates Who use Misleading Advertising
If you don't know something, it is a secret to you.
If someone can TEACH you something, in a way that you can understand it, embrace it, and run with it - then it is worth the cost to learn said secret.
Example Topic: How to do searches on the Internet.
Google and Yahoo have "Help" areas that show you how to do online searches. No secrets there, right?
Um, then why do so many people stink at it?
Note: I have worked with doctors, lawyers and Indian chiefs, who had no clue on how to use the search engines. And I mean the MAJORITY of people, from all walks of life, I have personally worked with have no clue.
If you (who are reading this comment now) are really good using the search engines then you are potentially a nerd, or have been online long enough and made efforts to figure it out. You are part of a minority.
In one of my niches, I have taught people how to use the search engines to become online research experts. I taught them the "secrets" of this topic.
Yes, in spite of all the Helps from Google, etc., and other online resources, my down-to-earth teaching on the topic opened a whole new world to them. I literally helped change their online lives. I know this because they told me that I did with glowing testimonials and reviews.
They were thrilled. The secret to them, was understood.
With online marketing, like so many other topics, there is information overload and confusion. Who is right, who is wrong?
John Reese did two things for me in the past years:
- He opened a whole new world about Internet marketing to me.
- He taught me in a way that I could understand.
One of the big factors to me with John is that he has tested so many things and actually been in the trenches doing it - and succeeding.
I believe there is no greater calling that that of a teacher.
So, teach me, Rick. There are plenty of things out there that are still secrets to me.
Use your powers for good. Build and do not tear down.
;-) Robert
They have all the secrets they want to hide.
Yet they propose a ridiculous notion like:
"There's No Secrets"
Yeah right, sell that to school kids!
It's not about tearing down because options and solutions have already been presented by many of the commenters.
This thread is also not about John Reese, and it's certainly not an attack on him. His product undoubtedly has value to many, that's not in dispute.
John is merely the latest in a long line of marketers to use a promotional method that a lot of people (both customers and marketers) are concerned about.
The crux of the matter as I see it, is best presented as a question:
Should internet marketing related products be launched with hype, by affiliates and JV partners who use unscrupulous tactics, bombarding their lists, and competing against other promoters by adding 'bribes', OFTEN without having even seen the actual product they're promoting?
Of course, customers DO have a choice, they CAN unsubscribe from a list, BUT customers can also be manipulated. After all, we are in a world of expert marketers who can make plenty of people believe that their product is the magic pill that'll solve all their problems and make them lots of money.
It's been my observation that a LOT of customers are starting to rebel. They're starting to realize that they've spent lots of money without any results. They're starting to realize that there really are few genuine 'secrets'. They're starting to realize that they need to find a mentor who provides help and value CONSISTENTLY, not just right before a launch with the sole purpose of whipping people up into a frenzy of excitement, only for them to be abandoned later, until the next launch...
Andrew Locks last blog post..Episode #13 - Cellphone Woes, Back End Sales, How to Choose a Reliable Web Host, and a Marketing Lesson from Zappos.com
Your post is very well written - just like your show at http://HelpMyBusiness.com
You manage to get said in a few words what is really clear and true about how both sides of the story are true.
While you CAN unsubscribe - we WANT great content and to be treated with respect.
That is why I wrote I am Joe's Emai List.
Thanks for your support Andrew,
Rick
If you are a good marketer then you CAN sell period! That is the bottom line. You can't let one man's opinion of what you're doing or not doing stop you. There are always going to be haters and naysayers but to say that Rick hurt John's sales is a weak a-- cop out in my humble opinion. I mean some will, some won't, so what next!!
When someone says to me that I can't do this or can't do that it just makes me more determined to prove them wrong. John's first TS was good enough that it's credibility alone is closing sales for John. I know I REALLY liked it and like John. As a matter of fact I am one of these guys who was waiting for all the bonuses to come out before I decided to buy. Rick's post is certainly not going to stop me. No offense Rick. ;)
A very good friend of mines once said "You're not a real marketer if you can't stand on your own two feet. If all you can do is ask others to mail to their lists for you then that isn't marketing because anyone can do that." Now we all KNOW John Reese does not NEED people to mail for him. He CAN obviously stand on his OWN two feet but there are alot of folks out there who can't. So what they NEED to do is LEARN HOW TO MARKET BETTER. If Affiliate Marketers out there are going to allow what Rick says and think "victimize" them then they need to get out of the game. You have to be able to bring it or just don't get involved. I can't concern myself with what others say. I just hone my skills more and use what others say as fuel to succeed.
John Reese is considered a legend by alot of folks in this industry and his reputation and credibility alone probably sold the copies of TS 2.0 that DID sell. Yeah some Affiliate marketers threw in their bonuses to make more sales for John and themselves but it's not like John would've starved if they hadn't. I am sure John is doing quite well with this launch.
You have to build a relationship with your list. You have to have built an affinity with your list and that is what makes or breaks the deal. Not one man's opinion which Rick IS entitled to just like you are Deb but I think you misread Rick's post and intention in the post.
There are too many folks out there who DO pimp out their lists for a commission without really giving a damn about people's success. WHERE is the follow up? Where is their intent to make sure the customers that buy through their links understand the material THEY are endorsing. Those that just come out to make a quick buck are the folks you should be attacking Deb. I mean isn't this still America that we live in? Don't we have freedom of speech here? Last I checked we did.
I don't know ONE IM'er or Affiliate Marketer that AFTER he or she endorses a product as an affiliate and makes that nice affiliate commission takes it upon THEMSELVES to put on a free teleseminar or webinar making sure that folks consume the material and understand it. I've never known or heard that happen. There is no "after you buy through my link" support or follow up. They just leave buyers on their own. I am referring to the affiliates and not the owner of the product. John has offered to do alot for the buyers on this TS 2.0 but I am referring to affiliates in general. They just figure it is the author or owner of the original product's responsibility but it would be nice once in a while to see affiliates follow up and make sure their subscribers/buyers are getting all they can out of the product. I may be wrong and if I am I apologize but have never heard of such a thing. Affiliates move on after promoting a product. I mean they deliver their bonuses and then you are on your own.
I don't know you Deb and you don't know me but I know Rick well enough to say that I seriously do not think his intent was to kill John's sales. I think he was just pointing out some things that were maybe bothering him and a lot of folks will admit that they DO get tired of receiving tons of emails on the same product launch. I think it is healthy to opt out of IM'ers lists who are not contributing value to their subscribers. If the ONLY time you hear from a marketer is when there is a big launch then unsubscribe I say. I know alot of marketers who DON'T take the time to give a sh-- about their subscribers. All they care about is their commissions. They do not educate, help or freely give to their lists. They use the word sheeple in private conversations but would never say it to peoples faces. Who is stepping up for the buyers of the products? Where is their voice when they buy products BECAUSE an affiliate is pushing pushing pushing it down their throats and they never can implement it. It just collects dust on their hard drives. Who feels bad for them?
Are all affiliate marketers "bad" or "selfish" of course not! I am just saying to look around and see how many of them really do follow up to insure the success of their buyers?
Either way I believe we are all entitled to our opinions and if a person does not like the programming then they can just change the channel. It is as simple as that as I see it.
Thanks for reading.
p.s.
For all I know maybe I misunderstood everyone who's posted comments on this post including you Deb but does that make me a bad guy? Nah just misunderstood like Rick I guess.
God bless you and yours
p.s.s
It is not my intention to disrespect Deb, John, Rick or anyone else for that matter so I hope this comment does not get misread and start another fire. ;)
It'll be best if we can buy the main product again from another affiliate whose bonuses potentially live up to their claims.
That way we won't be locked into some worthless stupiac bonuses.
I often advise new online businesses NOT to launch an affiliate program when they are just starting out - for five reasons:
http://www.affiliate-software-review.com/asrblo...
But now that I read my original blog post I realize that I've assumed that IM launches are different. Yes they're different ... they're different in the sense that they're getting out of hand.
I think I'll rewrite my post to say that even in the IM world you shouldn't launch with masses of affiliates, for the same reasons you wouldn't start an affiliate program when launching in any other niche.
Give good value, get happy customers referring you more, figure out how to optimize your conversion, then start buying traffic ... and maybe then think about starting an aff. program.
You have written precisely what I thought. I unsubscribed from 3-4 lists as a direct result of big-launch whoring - Mike Filsaime was one of these lists.
I watched John Reese's videos about TS2 and it looks a good product, although not something I want right now. The hyperbole and bullsh^t that it was wrapped in by "the 12 whores" just took the biscuit & I decided to tune them out.
I think such a big part of social networking is trust, and they blew it.
Thanks for an enlightened post.
Lee
Lee Duncans last blog post..Business Success & The Milkman…
thanks for warning. i wan to buy it before, but not anymore.
:)
ohwillieJokess last blog post..If you love someone
This Internet Thing intrigues me.
Especially from a Marketers viewpoint.
People are seeking information.
For a multitude of reasons.
And thanks to The Power of this medium, it
is available for FREE in almost all situations. One must be diligent, as we were in the past, and seek the Information, spend Time & Energy instead of Massive Capital.
Now I understand that you can BUY your way into Success, there are example of that all over the net...
But thanks to people like yourself and others the "average Joe and Jane" can learn HOW TO BUILD successful businesses through this Medium.
The new name "Social Networking" is what we have been practicing for 50 years
I still favor Off-line Businesses, much more lucrative currently, and the ability to Rifle Focus the prospects is easier. Not a lot of wannabes.
My off-line consulting grows from Realistic Clients who know what they have to do to get on top and stay there.
I really appreciate your Candor and talent.
Hope to meet up some day